20% vat on fees

[namechangedforthisone35]

IF Labour get in and IF the 20% does get added to fees, how many private school pupils will be moved to state? I have three kids (one not school aged yet) and in private school. One of many reasons because I didn't want them in a class of 30. I couldn't afford the vat increase so would have to move them but then that class of 30 becomes, what, 40?! In an already strained and unresourced system?!

Wwyd?

Y - I'd have to move kids to state
N - I'll pay the vat

Ok, I'll be clearer. Yes, being a SAHM is very much a privilege if it's by choice and not necessity. If you are a SAHM and all it would take for you to be able to afford to send your (two!) children to private school is to get a (minimum wage!) job then yes, you are very much already privileged. If elite is being of a 'select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society' then I guess those people could be classed as elite. It's certainly not a position that most of society are in.

By the way, if you started a thread on here asking if you could afford private school for two children when the spare money you have is a minimum wage salary you would be very rightly be told that it would be a struggle/impossible (uniform, trips, extra curriculum activities, increased fees as they get older).

‘£60k (2 children) per year but they cannot afford an extra 20% really?’

its not about affordability when you’re shelling out £60k in fees already ( plus all the extras - music, trips, transport, uniform, sports lessons etc etc ) it’s about not wanting to pay even MORE on top.
Still, gives them something to talk about at dinner parties…

£60k (2 children) per year but they cannot afford an extra 20% really?

It’s an extra 20% on top of fees which have risen hugely during the last couple of years especially, on top of increased cost of living and mortgage costs. It would amount to £12,000 extra per year (or around £23k of additional gross income), just to pay the VAT. That is a lot of money to the majority of private school parents. For those who claim that isn’t a lot of money, I think they are out of touch with the reality of the situation.

Private school where I live doesn't cost £30k a year per child. Another common misconception that we're all living in the SE dropping our kids off at their £30k schools in our over-sized SUVs. And the 'extras' won't cost thousands of £. Yes DH and I earn more than the average wage. But we are choosing private school over other things. And yes 20% will make a huge difference when we're counting every penny to do it in the first place. DS is dyslexic and in a class where about a third of the kids have SEN or behavioural issues. We've had to get a private assessment rather than wait 2 years for one and we're moving him so his needs can be managed better.

I am willing to bet that the VAT on private schools will go like the 50p tax above 150k. Poor outcome overall, raising far less than they claim. Paragraph 1.4 in that report is rather telling. You cannot predict human behaviour especially not amongst those with assets/higher income. It is unfair that this type of tax will hit actual children, nor will it lead to better educational outcomes for the country as a whole. All in all another daft policy.

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN00249/SN00249.pdf

The very least they need to do is produce an actual research briefing looking into all aspects.
In all likelihood they are hitting those earning 100-200k with 2 kids the most pushing the already highest marginal tax rate payers into ridiculous territory. If that is the case, human behaviour will most definitely alter. And they will know that if they cost it properly and do the required research. If they refuse to do that we will know for sure that it is just another race to the bottom/divisive Brexit style populist shite.

Yes you sum it up well. Always look at behaviour over bad policy

A lot of people who have no experience of the private sector seem to think that every private school child is attending the likes of Eton, with elaborate uniforms, endless foreign school trips, being picked up for holidays by the family chauffeur etc. As you know, the reality is so much different. A lot of families have been failed by the state sector and scrimp to send their child to a school which can adequately provide for them.

I live in SW England, the average PS fees for a day senior pupil is anywhere between 6.5 and 10k. per pupil per term, plenty of RL experience thankyou.

& yes many pupils do get driven around, v expensive school trips, sports and music lessons.

Wouldn't it be lovely if ALL kids got the opportunities and SEN education you all seem to get, instead this Govt is cutting Sen's funding

This really shows how much you don't understand about the private sector.
Fees here are between 15-18K per year. Music, sports etc are all included. That's the point, these things are all included in the price and school day so we don't have to factor them into 2 parents working FT in demanding jobs.
The cost of fees means that there aren't many mega high earners. Most families are farming with a smattering of vets/doctors and regional managers ie similar to many state schools. No hedge fund managers here!

You base your assumptions on stereotypes without any understanding of the majority of private parents/kids.

I live in SW England, the average PS fees for a day senior pupil is anywhere between 6.5 and 10k. per pupil per term, plenty of RL experience thankyou

What a few of us are trying to say is that we don't pay £6.5-10k per term. So your reality of private school is very different for people who don't live in the SW.

From the IFS. “In 2022–23, average private school fees across the UK were £15,200”. That’s the reality. That’s the average. Some will be more, some less.

I agree that all children should get an excellent education. Unfortunately, that’s not the reality. Punishing those in the private sector with a policy which raises a relatively tiny amount isn’t going to help improve that. We need decent policies which will improve that situation rather than populist vote winning policies.

The SW is hardly the affluent SE.

Yes and that average includes primary aged children, which can be a 1/3rd less than senior - I specifically referenced Senior pupils which is the figure parents need to look at if they want to send to private sector.

But i do agree that Labour need to publish the research into this.

Why don't we make it the reality?

Other European countries do.

The SW is hardly the affluent SE
Certainly more affluent than where I live given its £3k a term here

And some of us live in the North!

The VAT will apply to all private schools. Some parents choose private only for primary school, using state for secondary.

In any case, from The Times, “At secondary level, the average fees are £5,854 a term or £17,562 a year”. One secondary school near us is less than £14k per year. It’s certainly not filled with very wealthy families.

I have no idea why we don’t make it a reality. Unfortunately, a lot of people are using their energies trying to harm the private sector rather than improve the state sector. I suspect a lot of the answer is cultural. Other countries manage to have much better state schools without penalising the private sector. In fact some countries, including Finland, actually provide state funding for private schools.

@Absolutely45 i live in the SW and our fees are about half of the lower end of your range

The Maynard School, Exeter - £5,514/term for senior & 6th form
Truro School - £5,585/term (incl lunch) for senior & 6th form

Those are two highly respected SW indies... not sure where this "average of 6.5k-10k" is?

‘@Absolutely45 i live in the SW and our fees are about half of the lower end of your range’

depends on the school. Live in similar area - days fees Secondary ( not including all the uniform and bells which is ££ more) per year would easily range from
£15//16k to £40k

and if you have 2 kids? Even at £15k plus uniform/transport/ breakfast/lunch/ enrichment/ music lesson/ trips/ SEN support/ extra subject support …

and if you have 2 kids? Even at £15k plus uniform/transport/ breakfast/lunch/ enrichment/ music lesson/ trips/ SEN support/ extra subject support

DS uniform will cost around £250 for the year, SEN support is included, sports and clubs are included, he will eat his breakfast at home, take a packed lunch and bus will cost us about £100 a month (until he's old enough to get a free public bus in a few years time). The only mandatory school trips are UK based outdoor centres which isn't any different to state. Overseas trips are not mandatory. Kids aren't musical.

On the plus side, schools apparently charging £5/6k per year - a bit more in VAT etc is barely going to touch the sides

@Whazzabanger no need for breakfast or transport, lunch and most extracurricular enrichment included (think I paid £7 for one club this term?), as is an hour of after school care. Uniform is largely second hand (strongly encouraged by the school) but in total we don’t spend more than we would for state uniform where second hand less easy to come by. Music lessons during the school day are less than going rate for lessons outside of school where I would have to provide logistics. No need for tutoring, we do pay for SEN support, but since that would not be available at all via state, it sure how you compare?

don’t get me wrong, it is all a major expense, but we save time (and as a freelancer time = money) and cost is defrayed by savings in other areas by having them in private. For us it is less than we were paying for private nursery in London. Families find nursery fees challenging, but most manage to make ends meet when they need to.

i dearly love our school, but what it offers is no better than what my nephews get as standard in the us state school system. The fact that uk state schools are in a dire situation does not make adequate provision a luxury.

You really don't get it. It will for families who are stretching themselves to pay what are considered lower fees. The ones who won't feel it are the ones paying £30k a year and living the high life while their kids are at Eton. Which isn't representative of many private schools are their families. Not sure how many times this has to be explained to you in this thread.

@Heatherbell1978 whazzabanger clearly views the world as ‘haves vs have nots’ - a simplistic, and naive perspective on the world. Growing up in a lower lower middle class household, I remember looking at a friend who was probably just a smidge north of average, but whose family occasionally went out to eat in restaurants, had a dishwasher, and went on vacation in actual hotels (not grandparents sofa) and thought they were unimaginably wealthy. If you are on £25k (and most of your social circle is too), then it is hard to understand the difference between £50k and £500k

i think there might also be a bit of ‘money doesn’t matter to you if you spend it on private education, so why not hand over a bit more’. When you have a kid who would do well enough in any setting. That’s why you see anti private posters holding seemingly conflicting beliefs that private is not better than state but also private is a luxury that should be taxed. Private education is admittedly inaccessible to many families, but there are lots of families who do find a way to fund private when they really need to due to Sen or bullying. That’s the point when you are willing to pay for education rather than vacations, or home improvements or cars. It is the personal equivalent of disaster relief - finding money you didn’t have in your budget to address a critical need / emergency for your child.

This article definitely made me think of Mumsnet!

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/24/britain-richest-10-per-cent-wealthy-inequality-labour-private-schools