Page 20 | 20% vat on fees

namechangedforthisone35 · 2023-12-10T06:17:41+00:00

*IF* Labour get in and *IF* the 20% does get added to fees, how many private school pupils will be moved to state? I have three kids (one not school aged yet) and in private school. One of many reasons because I didn't want them in a class of 30. I couldn't afford the vat increase so would have to move them but then that class of 30 becomes, what, 40?! In an already strained and unresourced system?! Wwyd? Y - I'd have to move kids to state N - I'll pay the vat

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 15/12/2023 10:37

Araminta1003 · 15/12/2023 10:21

We are having to pay our newly qualified solicitors £125000 now and they are losing so much of it in tax (highest marginal tax rate). Out in Dubai if they pay them £90000 they are as well off as getting £200,000 here. So some of the jobs move to Dubai and the contracts are written there and business is conducted through there. That is the reality on the ground. HMRC absolutely will lose out and so will the vulnerable in the country. But keep digging your litte head in the sand @jgw1

Dubai is raking in the cash now.

100% - close relative has just moved to Dubai to work on a contract for a UK employer. He could do the job here, but instead is doing it from there and no longer paying tax in UK. Reckons he'll have the mortgage paid off in 3 years.

user1497207191 · 15/12/2023 10:37

jgw1 · 15/12/2023 10:25

I have never understood why people go out and buy coffees, why not just make one at home, much cheaper, or not have one at all. You are quite correct not the least bit essential.

Does one pay VAT on a Costa coffee?

Show quote history

Yes, there's VAT on hot drinks as catering is VATable. The staff will be paying tax/nic on their wages. Employer will be paying employers NIC on the wages. Firm will be paying business rates for the premises. Suppliers will be paying fuel duty on the fuel needed to get the equipment and foodstuffs to the outlet (and of course there's also tax/nic etc on the driver's wages). Firm will be paying insurance premium tax and landfill tax on trade waste disposal. The actual tax paid in all the different taxes by all the people involved will be a high proportion of the cost of the coffee!

Yes, people don't "need" to buy a coffee, just as they don't need restaurants, fast food outlets, don't need to go to concerts, theatres, etc., don't need to go to theme parks, museums, or other attractions. It's called the "service" economy and successive governments of both colours have courted it as it brings in huge amounts of cash for the Treasury!

Look at Covid when the service industry was basically closed down overnight. The Treasury lost billions in all the different tax revenues hit by the closures!

If people didn't buy coffees, the taxpayer would have to pay benefits to even more people who lost their jobs, not just in the outlets, but all the support services, distribution, warehousing, etc.

Araminta1003 · 15/12/2023 10:38

“I can see why other countries might welcome a reduction in higher tax payers in the U.K., if they’re eyeing up rebalancing power, but to wish it on yourself is pretty stupid.”

I agree - it may have major longterm political power repercussions.

And we get back to the incompetence of our leaders. They really need to stay ahead of the game a bit more.

Araminta1003 · 15/12/2023 10:39

@jgw1 “So you are telling me that someone who earns more than twice as much as me is not swimming in it, yet I can live a very comfortable life and save not inconsiderable amounts each month and am perfectly happy to pay VAT on any luxury purchases I might choose to make.”

Those people are creating far more value for society as a whole than you are sitting at home.

jgw1 · 15/12/2023 10:53

user1497207191 · 15/12/2023 10:37

Yes, there's VAT on hot drinks as catering is VATable. The staff will be paying tax/nic on their wages. Employer will be paying employers NIC on the wages. Firm will be paying business rates for the premises. Suppliers will be paying fuel duty on the fuel needed to get the equipment and foodstuffs to the outlet (and of course there's also tax/nic etc on the driver's wages). Firm will be paying insurance premium tax and landfill tax on trade waste disposal. The actual tax paid in all the different taxes by all the people involved will be a high proportion of the cost of the coffee!

Yes, people don't "need" to buy a coffee, just as they don't need restaurants, fast food outlets, don't need to go to concerts, theatres, etc., don't need to go to theme parks, museums, or other attractions. It's called the "service" economy and successive governments of both colours have courted it as it brings in huge amounts of cash for the Treasury!

Look at Covid when the service industry was basically closed down overnight. The Treasury lost billions in all the different tax revenues hit by the closures!

If people didn't buy coffees, the taxpayer would have to pay benefits to even more people who lost their jobs, not just in the outlets, but all the support services, distribution, warehousing, etc.

Edited

Show quote history

Does one pay VAT on coffees in Dubai?

If not I think I might move there.

jgw1 · 15/12/2023 10:55

Araminta1003 · 15/12/2023 10:39

@jgw1 “So you are telling me that someone who earns more than twice as much as me is not swimming in it, yet I can live a very comfortable life and save not inconsiderable amounts each month and am perfectly happy to pay VAT on any luxury purchases I might choose to make.”

Those people are creating far more value for society as a whole than you are sitting at home.

These people we are discussing are creating more value for society, but might also simaltaneously move abroad and then their job wouldn't need to exist.

Ok. kind of like Schrodingers value. nice.

EasternStandard · 15/12/2023 10:57

We could empty out the U.K. and leave state dependents (and carers?)

Tax receipts not needed.

What could go wrong

jgw1 · 15/12/2023 10:58

EasternStandard · 15/12/2023 10:57

We could empty out the U.K. and leave state dependents (and carers?)

Tax receipts not needed.

What could go wrong

One of your more sensible suggestions.

EasternStandard · 15/12/2023 10:59

Some sound keen who knows.

Those evil tax payers who needs them. Good luck to the state dependents left behind though

Araminta1003 · 15/12/2023 11:05

“One of your more sensible suggestions.”

Like coffee in a very hot country.

EasternStandard · 15/12/2023 11:06

Araminta1003 · 15/12/2023 11:05

“One of your more sensible suggestions.”

Like coffee in a very hot country.

Like Putin’s wish list. Maybe it’s a ploy get the tax payers out.

Copkake · 15/12/2023 11:22

I think people don't understand how much of our tax receipts are based on jobs that are portable. More than half my friends could take their job with them to any number of countries. If we left there would be no job vacancy in the UK. The Uk simply loses the tax. Med tech companies are actively avoiding the UK now and we are shipping out bright young technical PhDs as fast as we can mint them. The UK needs to not be actively hostile to the type of workers who pay the most tax. It's just not good policy.

The state schools simply aren't something most expats would even entertain given the quality or lack thereof. The UK is far better off having those families letting them pay the highest rate of tax and save the government the money by not using a state place.

Labour should focus on raising the standards of the state schools without driving out the very people who will pay the tax to facilitate those initiatives. On just about every scale possible the UK is lagging behind other western nations. Sort the big issues!

EasternStandard · 15/12/2023 11:32

Blair managed to swindle taxpayers via PFI but at least he knew you don’t hit higher tax payers for a political gimmick so they bugger off

jgw1 · 15/12/2023 11:38

Copkake · 15/12/2023 11:22

I think people don't understand how much of our tax receipts are based on jobs that are portable. More than half my friends could take their job with them to any number of countries. If we left there would be no job vacancy in the UK. The Uk simply loses the tax. Med tech companies are actively avoiding the UK now and we are shipping out bright young technical PhDs as fast as we can mint them. The UK needs to not be actively hostile to the type of workers who pay the most tax. It's just not good policy.

The state schools simply aren't something most expats would even entertain given the quality or lack thereof. The UK is far better off having those families letting them pay the highest rate of tax and save the government the money by not using a state place.

Labour should focus on raising the standards of the state schools without driving out the very people who will pay the tax to facilitate those initiatives. On just about every scale possible the UK is lagging behind other western nations. Sort the big issues!

I thought we were not meant to like migrants, so we shouldn't like these people who may leave to go to another country because they lack the social responsibility to pay their taxes?

user1497207191 · 15/12/2023 11:43

@jgw1

What about the social responsibility of the lazy/leeches who could work, could work longer hours, but happy to sit on their arses and live on benefits?

Araminta1003 · 15/12/2023 11:49

Life is global now for the educated elite and jobs are portable. Western economies have a lot of elderly people to take care off and are lacking in aspiration.
You don’t need to be camp red, blue or anything in between to see the actual facts. People are not predictable in that way anymore. Neither are our politicians themselves. Lots of working class now vote Tory and will do so in the next election. We have all sorts of views in most parties anyway.

I have been thinking about the lack of leadership and lack of real vision. Fact of the matter is recent political history has shown that no particular leader of either party is in any way safe so they are all choking in their own bile and scared of actually being a proper leader in the first place. If they do anything too big, their own party will kill them off before they get properly started.

As it stands, I am worried for my 4 DC. What future do they have in this country? Why have I bothered pushing them to achieve if it is not going to be valued. This is not just a private school parents matter. It is a question for all parents who value education and have pushed their DC. What is the actual point? They are going to have to go abroad and make a life for themselves and they are going to be scattered across the globe. Not something I wanted for them or myself.

jgw1 · 15/12/2023 11:51

user1497207191 · 15/12/2023 11:43

@jgw1

What about the social responsibility of the lazy/leeches who could work, could work longer hours, but happy to sit on their arses and live on benefits?

Are you refering to pensioners?

SheilaFentiman · 15/12/2023 11:52

“. Med tech companies are actively avoiding the UK now and we are shipping out bright young technical PhDs as fast as we can mint them. “

Mmmm. That’s more to do with Brexit and basing oneself in a country that comes under the eu drug or tech regulation regimes, or access to a wider range of research grants, than it is VAT on school fees.

Seriously. There are a bunch of reasons to leave the country if you are mobile and so minded, and VAT on school fees is a drop in the ocean. Bankers and lawyers and whatnot have parents and friends here. As ever, that will tie some and not others.

This thread has reached melodramatic heights. I think I’ll stop watching it.

jgw1 · 15/12/2023 11:54

Araminta1003 · 15/12/2023 11:49

Life is global now for the educated elite and jobs are portable. Western economies have a lot of elderly people to take care off and are lacking in aspiration.
You don’t need to be camp red, blue or anything in between to see the actual facts. People are not predictable in that way anymore. Neither are our politicians themselves. Lots of working class now vote Tory and will do so in the next election. We have all sorts of views in most parties anyway.

I have been thinking about the lack of leadership and lack of real vision. Fact of the matter is recent political history has shown that no particular leader of either party is in any way safe so they are all choking in their own bile and scared of actually being a proper leader in the first place. If they do anything too big, their own party will kill them off before they get properly started.

As it stands, I am worried for my 4 DC. What future do they have in this country? Why have I bothered pushing them to achieve if it is not going to be valued. This is not just a private school parents matter. It is a question for all parents who value education and have pushed their DC. What is the actual point? They are going to have to go abroad and make a life for themselves and they are going to be scattered across the globe. Not something I wanted for them or myself.

Sadly we have an education system that only values exam results and not education. I see many parents who push their children to achieve exam results at the exclusion of their education.

jgw1 · 15/12/2023 11:55

SheilaFentiman · 15/12/2023 11:52

“. Med tech companies are actively avoiding the UK now and we are shipping out bright young technical PhDs as fast as we can mint them. “

Mmmm. That’s more to do with Brexit and basing oneself in a country that comes under the eu drug or tech regulation regimes, or access to a wider range of research grants, than it is VAT on school fees.

Seriously. There are a bunch of reasons to leave the country if you are mobile and so minded, and VAT on school fees is a drop in the ocean. Bankers and lawyers and whatnot have parents and friends here. As ever, that will tie some and not others.

This thread has reached melodramatic heights. I think I’ll stop watching it.

It is the VAT on coffee that gets me. Next they'll be charging it on the sandwich I buy for lunch every day, because I am too lazy to make my own. Its enough to make one want to move to Dubai.

EasternStandard · 15/12/2023 11:56

SheilaFentiman · 15/12/2023 11:52

“. Med tech companies are actively avoiding the UK now and we are shipping out bright young technical PhDs as fast as we can mint them. “

Mmmm. That’s more to do with Brexit and basing oneself in a country that comes under the eu drug or tech regulation regimes, or access to a wider range of research grants, than it is VAT on school fees.

Seriously. There are a bunch of reasons to leave the country if you are mobile and so minded, and VAT on school fees is a drop in the ocean. Bankers and lawyers and whatnot have parents and friends here. As ever, that will tie some and not others.

This thread has reached melodramatic heights. I think I’ll stop watching it.

That’s a shame…

Generally though politicians who recognise value of higher tax payers rather than use them as political gimmicks are likely to do better

Hence Blair being the only successful Labour politician for a fair while

EasternStandard · 15/12/2023 11:57

Araminta1003 · 15/12/2023 11:49

Life is global now for the educated elite and jobs are portable. Western economies have a lot of elderly people to take care off and are lacking in aspiration.
You don’t need to be camp red, blue or anything in between to see the actual facts. People are not predictable in that way anymore. Neither are our politicians themselves. Lots of working class now vote Tory and will do so in the next election. We have all sorts of views in most parties anyway.

I have been thinking about the lack of leadership and lack of real vision. Fact of the matter is recent political history has shown that no particular leader of either party is in any way safe so they are all choking in their own bile and scared of actually being a proper leader in the first place. If they do anything too big, their own party will kill them off before they get properly started.

As it stands, I am worried for my 4 DC. What future do they have in this country? Why have I bothered pushing them to achieve if it is not going to be valued. This is not just a private school parents matter. It is a question for all parents who value education and have pushed their DC. What is the actual point? They are going to have to go abroad and make a life for themselves and they are going to be scattered across the globe. Not something I wanted for them or myself.

It will be sad if the U.K. does go down that road

user1497207191 · 15/12/2023 12:08

jgw1 · 15/12/2023 11:54

Sadly we have an education system that only values exam results and not education. I see many parents who push their children to achieve exam results at the exclusion of their education.

Show quote history

And far too many pupils won't engage with neither "education" nor "exam results factory" - they just bum around, causing disruption, and only aspire to a life on benefits or minimum wage work. Things have gone badly wrong in many areas over the past 4-5 decades and sadly, there are now signs of things being turned around.

At least those who go down the "exam factory" route have more options for jobs, careers, professions, etc., even if they don't get what you think is a real education. It's least they've achieved something worthwhile, maybe to be self sufficient and not dependant on others and put something back in society, even if only money via taxes, spending and employment! Those with what you call an education may nor may not end up being useful to society, it depends what they do with their "educated" life.

Labraradabrador · 15/12/2023 14:12

@jgw1 “Sadly we have an education system that only values exam results and not education. I see many parents who push their children to achieve exam results at the exclusion of their education.”

You should send your children to my kid’s private school. One of the benefits of using my money to buy an alternative choice is the ability to find a school that aligns with my values and priorities. My children receive a robust, multifaceted education where good exam outcomes are a byproduct rather than primary objective. Sounds like there is a great deal our educational sector could learn from our better private schools.

jgw1 · 15/12/2023 14:38

Labraradabrador · 15/12/2023 14:12

@jgw1 “Sadly we have an education system that only values exam results and not education. I see many parents who push their children to achieve exam results at the exclusion of their education.”

You should send your children to my kid’s private school. One of the benefits of using my money to buy an alternative choice is the ability to find a school that aligns with my values and priorities. My children receive a robust, multifaceted education where good exam outcomes are a byproduct rather than primary objective. Sounds like there is a great deal our educational sector could learn from our better private schools.

State schools don't have a choice, the only thing they are measured by his exam results.