20% vat on fees

[namechangedforthisone35]

IF Labour get in and IF the 20% does get added to fees, how many private school pupils will be moved to state? I have three kids (one not school aged yet) and in private school. One of many reasons because I didn't want them in a class of 30. I couldn't afford the vat increase so would have to move them but then that class of 30 becomes, what, 40?! In an already strained and unresourced system?!

Wwyd?

Y - I'd have to move kids to state
N - I'll pay the vat

Parents may be forced into accepting the failing primary or secondary as a temporary measure.

If primary you just add tutors after school, and start looking at houses and grammars etc for secondary.

There's also a lot less issue with wanting the 'local' school - which then massively increases your options to go for waiting list places across a big catchment area.

We went for an hour commute each way for an outstanding primary via waiting list, and then prepped for 3 years to target every music scholarship in London. Season ticket for the train is much cheaper than any of the local private schools, and meant we avoided both the 'needs improvement' local state secondary and the price tag of houses in catchment for the top London comps.

It's the same where I live. Many, if not all move from the grammars and some from the independents to the really well regarded state sixth form and travel in, often over an hour, for A levels/btecs. Where there is a minimum requirement in GCSEs that has gone from 5 to 7 (and 8 for Maths/Science) since COVID. meanwhile, the kids who got 5s and 6s and are probably capable of doing these qualifications in some subjects go to the local FE to do a trade or a BTEC and mostly drop out.

Out of my uni aged DC1 over 60% who went down that route are now doing nothing, sleeping after gaming all night, labouring, looking for jobs, drinking in the pub during the day etc. At 18/19. The others from the grammars and the private schools and the really good state sixth form are at uni or on good apprenticeships. It's really sad to see as they are all good lads. This is the real world that people actually live in.

from the well regarded state school not state sixth form.

Sigh.

I am going to post this and not reply again.

(and yes, I do have two kids in secondary private, who went to state primary. And for one, we did an in year appeal to a state grammar. So I’m not ignorant, whatever you might have decided)

OF BLOODY COURSE parents will move catchments at key times. That’s true now without the VAT point.

I am well aware that many church schools require attendance records. Again, at the normal point of entry, these will be looked at. The easiest and cheapest way to meet attendance requirements is to go! Why would donating to the church fund make a blind bit of difference? Once attendance is signed off, criteria are as usual for state schools eg siblings, distance etc.

If two private school parents lose income at once, it’s not going to be the VAT that makes the difference.

And any parent can appeal. If they don’t meet the criteria, they will lose. If they complain to the papers, they will be pointed at the nationwide rules governing such appeals. And do you really think the papers would love a “little Cedric got sent to a sink school when we had to pull him out of private owing to evil tax” would go well for the parents?!!?!?

SIGH

Well I'm going to reply and ask you to actually read my post which did NOT say that donating to the church roof fund would get you a place at a church school! If you want to be willfully ignorant and deliberately misunderstamd points people are making, crack on!

“We went for an hour commute each way for an outstanding primary via waiting list, and then prepped for 3 years to target every music scholarship in London. “

The academies will be planning ahead already to offer offer more scholarship places and aptitude tests. The bosses there would love to take on the displaced middle class DCs from private schools. I was recently very surprised to see rowing scholarships into Year 9! In a state comp… one of the darling’s of the press as well. This will be the future. Middle Class parents need not fear. Banding tests, inner and outer areas, aptitudes and all. It is coming to many of the academies.

You make a good point

Middle Class parents need not fear. Banding tests, inner and outer areas, aptitudes and all. It is coming to many of the academies.

Totally agree with you - I am one very happy customer of state education. I don't think the middle classes need fear much at all - with some forward planning, a few hours of research and a spreadsheet and the ability to pay for travel, tutoring and extra curricular, there is a world of choice out there.

Added bonus - you tick the state box for university, plus you can stick the cash you save into holidays, cars, pension etc. Maybe work less hours as well.

But the VAT raised isn't going to make any difference to the balance sheet for schools, and there will be children who don't have the same options and choice who won't be getting places at the grammars or the leafy comps who might have otherwise benefitted.

The academies will be planning ahead already to offer offer more scholarship places and aptitude tests.

How? Unless these schools had selective policies in place 1997/98 they can’t become selective?

Or do you mean create new grammars and free schools?

Apparently adding VAT to school fees will break down all other elements of the school system into a cowboy nightmare, Sabrina... :D

@SabrinaThwaite - I suggest you go and look at the Admissions policies in the top performing comps in London, as a starter. Compare and contrast how they have changed. Then I suggest you go and do some research on how much the head of the Harris academy earns. Ask yourself what incentivises him. What makes his job easier both getting pupils to achieve and recruiting the best staff that stay.

Next, go and look to the law on expulsion. That is expelling pupils for behaviour. Do some research on how behaviour policies have changed and why. Then ask yourself who will be expelled and at what points, when suddenly all the well behaved rich kids rock up.
It is difficult to expel for diagnosed SEN, less so for undiagnosed.

You don’t need to be an officially selective school at all, there are many many creative ways around this. They are all perfectly legal.

Exactly this. The number of people who think that privately educated children moving to the state will just have to put up with the local failing comp is laughable.

The parents will do everything they can at the ages of 4/11/16 to access the best state schools. All that will happen is that the previously privately educated will take the grammar/selective/good comprehensive places from those who would have otherwise benefited from those places. Those children will be pushed out into lower performing schools. Private school parents will get tutors to access selective places and will either buy or rent a property safely in decent catchments. I know someone who rented near a grammar for a few months to access that place.

I can’t see how this proposed VAT charge is going to benefit anyone.

No, you said that academies will introduce new selective policies. They can't because selection policies must have been in place in 1997/98 and in place continuously since then. They are prohibited from introducing selection by ability criteria.

What the CEO of the Harris Federation is paid is neither here nor there - the group is essentially a large company so it's not unreasonable for the CEO to have a significant salary.

BTW, I do have school aged children so fully understand the rules on expulsion on managing out of pupils.

HTH.

“They are prohibited from introducing selection by ability criteria.”

Ability? What do you mean by that? What about musical, language, sport aptitude - more and more of these are creeping in. Plus they are allowed to have streaming in place for band A? The top performing church schools requiring baptism by 6 months and regular church attendance? It is all aimed at middle class families who have a permanent address, organised enough to attend, do not do shift work, can pay for extra curricular.
Most kids who are good at music and languages are also very academic overall. Many kids who top sports are incredibly driven too.

Permanent exclusions for disadvantaged children have been going up ever since they introduced the Academies. Massive amount of hypocrisy in the state sector. So pardon me if I feel sorry for private school parents (even if I happily use the state sector, precisely because I have managed to understand how to navigate it to my own advantage).

"The parents will do everything they can at the ages of 4/11/16 to access the best state schools. All that will happen is that the previously privately educated will take the grammar/selective/good comprehensive places from those who would have otherwise benefited from those places. Those children will be pushed out into lower performing schools. Private school parents will get tutors to access selective places and will either buy or rent a property safely in decent catchments. I know someone who rented near a grammar for a few months to access that place."

Which is exactly what happens now with parents rich enough to buy an expensive house and/or pay for tutoring. There may be a few parents for whom private school was only just affordable who now fall into this bracket, but it's already a crowded bracket.

Oh, and since many, many private schools are selective, some current incumbents of private schools will already have hedged their bets by living near a decent state school and holding any place received there until they were sure of a private offer.

You make a strong argument for the removal of academics, would you also favour a greater role for LEAs in local education and children going to whichever school they happen to live nearest to?

And quite frankly @SabrinaThwaite - whilst the Council will tell you one thing, those in charge of Admissions in certain state schools will be applying the rules to their advantage, whether you like it or not. That is the actual reality on the ground. Obfuscate with weird tests and banding and ability - who do you think will be getting their head around all of that? Who do you think can afford the train tickets/late pick ups/rugby on a Saturday that some grammar schools do? The expensive uniform etc.

There are so many ways of back door selection in the state sector. You just have to navigate the system. I am not worried about tiger private school parents one bit. However, they will be displacing the poorer kids, there is no doubt about that. And potentially even the comfortable non pushy comp parents who cannot be bothered to push their DC to achieve fully at GCSE. It is perfectly legal for Sixth Forms to select. As others have pointed out. So any comp parents in catchment should also worry because their DC might not get the top GCSEs and the schools can easily change the entry requirements.

1.21 Partially selective schools select a proportion of their intake by ability. Where schools can partially select, they must publish the entry requirements for a selective place, and the process for such selection. They must offer places to other children if there are insufficient applicants who have satisfied the published entry requirements for a selective place. 1.22 Partially selective schools must not exceed the lowest proportion of selection that has been used since the 1997/98 school year

1.24 Schools that have arrangements to select by aptitude must not allow for more than 10 per cent of the total admissions intake to be allocated on the basis of such aptitude (even if the school has more than one specialism). The only specialist subjects on which a school may select by aptitude are: a) physical education or sport, or one or more sports; b) the performing arts, or any one or more of those arts; c) the visual arts, or any one or more of those arts; d) modern foreign languages, or any such language; and e) design and technology and information technology. Only schools which selected on either of these specialist subjects in the school year 2007/08 and every subsequent year may continue to do so.

Admissions code https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/60ebfeb08fa8f50c76838685/School_admissions_code_2021.pdf

"those in charge of Admissions in certain state schools will be applying the rules to their advantage,"

Yeah, this would not be legal.

You know that state school applications go through one's county, right?

And I assume you are also aware that much (most?) of the country doesn't have any grammar schools?

School sixth forms are exempt from the non-selection requirement.

Maybe you need to read up on the applicable legislation and admission codes @Araminta1003 ?

Although you are making a great case for completely doing away with selective schooling altogether.

An excellent idea.

The arguments in favour of children simply going to their local school on this thread have been quite persuasive.

“You know that state school applications go through one's county, right?”

Initially through the County or the Borough. Waiting lists then managed by the schools which are Academies/Church Schools etc. Academies manage their own Admissions, write their own behaviour and uniform, homework policies etc. There are absolutely ways to put a certain type of parent off.

“Academies and free schools are able to accept in-year admission applications directly from parents.”

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/academy-admissions

“The arguments in favour of children simply going to their local school on this thread have been quite persuasive.”

They absolutely have not. People with the means will just move to one type of area only, and the poor will be shafted in poor/dirty areas with no jobs and services even more. Want to create a ghetto - absolutely the best way to do it.

Keep reading, Araminta...

Other requirements
Your academy must also:

• allocate places on the basis of the published over-subscription criteria
• inform local authorities of all applications and their outcome
• inform parents of their right of appeal against the refusal of a place
• comply with the code, paying particular attention to chapter 3
• participate fully in locally agreed fair access protocols