If Labour make private schools charge VAT then they should allow new grammar schools to be created

[iPaddy]

I live in an area with zero grammars, no real choice in secondaries other than (often failing) local comprehensives or private.

I appreciate the arguments against private schools (creates unfair advantage) but what about areas with grammars? That's also an advantage. I'd love the option of a grammar school for the kids locally. The bright ones are being let down by the current situation. Has Labour said how they will address that?

There are no reliable academic studies- that was what I was trying to tell you! Also, yes it’s anecdotal but I’m still talking from experience having taught for years in grammar, private and comprehensive. Of course bright pupils can do well in comprehensive, even in some really poor comprehensives, although there are also specific reasons for that, as I’m sure your teacher friends are well aware (like the fact that in the worst comps you basically have to give private tuition for free after school or cover/ have your classes covered while you work with the top end to ensure the top grades or give ‘revision’ classes all year long). They are still facing greater odds than the kids in the grammar - who by the way, work their backsides off and deserve their grades. It also doesn’t all come down to grades. There are other areas, like in formal interviews, where grammar school children are generally better prepared and that is not to do with practice but with teaching styles in school.

In Trafford, particularly Altrincham there is no such thing as a 'Secondary Modern' unless you count the 2 non grammar schools that equal the performance of average Kent Grammar schools at A Level

Wellington Altrincham : A Level Average grade B+ 42.24 94 Students

Maidstone Boys Grammar: A level average grade B 41.12 185 students

Blessed Thomas Holford (Altrincham): A Level Grade B 39.16 91 students

Maidstone Girls Grammar: A Level Average Grade B+ 42.77 155 students

I wanted to show this because Wellington School in Altrincham is technically a Secondary Modern because apparently Comprehensive schools cannot exist in fully selective areas). yeah right

This is one indication of how the Grammar Schools in Trafford have lifted the other schools up with them.

The FSM argument regarding grammar schools is also misleading because all it tells us is that the poorest children are not well represented. What it does not tell us is how many children in grammar schools have two parents working earning average wages for instance. The whole ethos of Grammar Schools should be to help children from average backgrounds and above to achieve. Grammar schools should not be castigated nor get drawn in to some Socialist dogma fight about percentages of FSM pupils.

In what way are the current quoted studies unreliable?

But do you accept it happens, and that it’s very widespread indeed?

I accept that it happens. I don't know how widespread it is.

I do know that 'schools near expensive houses getting better results than those in deprived areas' is a bit of a chicken and egg situation though. If you switched all the kids from the expensive area school to the deprived one, and vice versa, do you think the expensive area school would continue to be the one getting the best results?

Grammar schools should not be castigated nor get drawn in to some Socialist dogma fight about percentages of FSM pupils.

But it's entirely pertinent when people are going on about grammar schools being great for social mobility when they blatantly aren't. Nearly a quarter of kids qualify for FSM.

Pupils in English regions dominated by grammar schools experience little or no boost in results compared with counterparts in other areas of the country, while exam grades among the brightest pupils may actually be lower, according to new research.
The authors said their evidence suggested there was no case for further expansion of grammar schools in England, and a strong argument for the dismantling of selective school systems that use 11-plus entry exams in areas such as Kent and Trafford.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/aug/28/english-regions-dominated-by-grammar-schools-do-not-improve-grades-study-says

It depends what you term as social mobility personally i would see a Grammar school child of a Sales Person and Train Driver getting to University as social mobility.

The child's parents are likely to earn over £80K PA together.

coldcaller you are looking at A-level results. The sixth forms of those non-grammar schools have entry requirements that are higher than the entry requirements for my school sixth form. That's how they're getting those results.

@Coldcaller Thats very interesting. Im only familiar with Kent as I have family there. In Kent 30% go to grammar. Is it the same in Altrincham

I dont think A Levels are the best comparitor though. As most schools set entry criteria for A levels as its not compulsory to do them. So i think all sixth forms are selective for A levels I think gcses are better to compare. . Also in my area the schools dont have sixth forms. Its college. So i cant compare!

GCSEs would be the best comparator, yes, Progress can’t be reliably measured though, as in many grammars there is a substantial % of children from private primaries (up to about 25% in some superselective schools), so you do have to look at raw results and can’t use any data referring to prior attainment. They used to be transparent about ‘% of children included in progress measure’ but that visibility has been taken away in most recent publications.

The four grammar schools in Altrincham take about 30% of students and have around 600 pupils in the Upper Sixth Form A Level grades go from 44.7 B+ St Ambrose a Catholic Boys Grammar to Altrincham Girls Grammar @ 51.98 A+

The two schools mentioned are taking the number of Upper Sixth pupils up to around 800 and still averaging B at A Level. The other two secondary schools achieve 28.38 @ C and North Cestrian does not have a Sixth form yet. That used to be a Private school that 30 years ago was an Independent Boys Grammar school that over time became redundant due to the excellent State schools on offer.

The same thing happened to the Independent secondary Girls school there as well ) That has become a Prep school !

Message to the Labour Party you want to reduce the number of Private Schools, thus allow more Grammar Schools

Nobel I think your Comprehensive needs to improve their grades

Even if it meant my DC winning the jackpot and being bussed to a school considerably better than out closest two, I'd still be against the policy.

The environment matters. Extra vehicle journeys are just plain wrong

I have mentioned A Levels because it is assumed that pupils who fail the 11+ are dammed for not passing the 11+.

for the record Wellington gets: 57% at grade 5 GCSE English/Maths
Blessed Thomas: 52% at grade 5 GCSE English/ Maths
North Cestrian 59% at Grade 5 GCSE English/Maths

Wholly off the point, but what a great school name: Blessed Thomas.

Beats all the St Blah, Our Lady of Blah and Christ’s College-type school names.

Didn’t Thomas doubt? Maybe that’s their secret - the promotion of sceptical enquiry.

@Reeet33 wow! V honest feedback :) would love to hear from you on "is there value for money to put my DD in a non selective primary like Staines preparatory school, from yr 3"? She's middle of the road kid, not scientist type bright but she copes well academically (math). She's in state school in Feltham (Cardinal) but after Yr 2, there are v poor state schools with availability. Money is not tight but I'm a single earner. Either I move to a location with better state (but how, cz u never know what will be available and then look for rental in catchment) or pay non selective private? What do u advise?

I have mentioned A Levels because it is assumed that pupils who fail the 11+ are dammed for not passing the 11+.

Given the number of high prior attainers in the schools, and that they are massively oversubscribed, have way lower than the national average of disadvantaged kids and even kids in catchment can't get into them, there are other factors at play.

Exactly.

Secondary moderns are terrible for morale and will not attract good teachers.

Grammar schools do not offer much you won’t get in the top set of a comprehensive, and can easily create complacency and lazy attitudes among kids and parents who assume that they’ve “got in,” so it should all be easy now.

Comprehensives with sets are the least-bad solution. They are not perfect, but they do ensure that lower and higher attainers get the same teachers, subject offer array and “school culture,” and the possibility of promotion/demotion gives incentives to both lower and higher achievers to maintain or improve performance. They also create better provision for kids with “spiky” profiles - we’ve all known nerdy kids who are pretty bad at writing but excel in maths, or kids like my girl who is not very good at maths but very artistic and good with the humanities. Should these kids go to the grammar or the secondary modern? Nether is a good fit for them.

Thankfully, the Tories are on their way out now, so even if they do decide to propose more grammar schools as a bit of red meat to their base, it doesn’t matter. Labour is unlikely to increase or decrease grammar schools. My personal opinion is that all residents of an area with kids under 10 OR currently childfree and under the age of 45 (= possible future parents) should be allowed to vote on whether to scrap “grammar schools/secondary moderns” in their area. Let them choose.

Altrincham is not so much a good advert for grammar schools as an advert for living in a wealthy, socially exclusive area. Looking at the effect grammar schools have on the overall results of Kent schools gives a more accurate picture of how helpful grammar schools are or are not for the country’s education system, as it demonstrates the reality on a larger scale than one wealthy enclave of greater Manchester. I think our country’s education woes relate far more to the state of our wider society than to whether there are any grammar schools available nearby.

But you were talking about the English and / or Welsh schooling, therefore the correct English spelling applies.

In the same way that if I were to write about, "the world trade center" I would use the US spelling as the name is a US spelling.

Nobel I think your Comprehensive needs to improve their grades @Coldcaller

You missed my point. The entry requirements to those 'secondary modern' sixth forms are higher than at my comp sixth form.

If my comp wanted to improve its grades, it would just raise its entry requirements to the same as those schools.

Some posters are asserting that two contradictory things are both true:

Without grammars or private schools, clever/middle class children will enhance the school as a whole, bringing up the standards through the magical effect of their presence.

And

Clever/middle class children will be insulated from the chair throwers because they will be in top sets and so their experience will be just like being in a grammar.

How do kids get into the top sets in the first place if their learning is disrupted or they don't feel safe in school? What about the ones in the middle? How can they be stretched / meet their full potential? As one poster said, in a classroom of 30+ kids, where behaviour management is taxing, how do teachers get to know their students and what they are capable of? E.g. for several years no homework was ever looked at by teachers^. Children were told it was their responsibility to do it and to tell the teacher if they had any questions about it.

I don't have a personal motive by the way, I'm just sad that my town's secondary school has been awful (national news making awful) for what seems a very long time. It's turning a corner now but that's not going to help the 100s of kids whose education was severely disrupted over the past 10 years or so.

The general solution to turning around those schools is draconian behaviour policies. Not very popular with MN though.

They tried that. It didn't work. The school was utterly bleak for years. The generally good kids who were caught up in a trigger happy punishment regime were utterly traumatised.

E.g. one y7 kid from a chaotic family couldn't always wear correct uniform because his parents weren't organised enough to get it together. So he spent days in isolation, so then truanted on the days when he didn't have the right clothes.

Then they relaxed it and it was mayhem.

I can agree with that wholeheartedly.

I could be persuaded that universal comprehensive schooling is the best way forward if there was general support for very strong policies against disruption, bullying and thuggery in schools. But, as you say, there are too many parents against it. Not least because it would require more frequent exclusion, temporary or permanent, and therefore a greatly expanded network of referral units.

The government has underfunded education for the last 10 years, taken money from poorer families and particularly single parent families. That's why children have suffered.