Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Education

Join the discussion on our Education forum.

VAT on private school fees

1000 replies

user1486984759 · 27/09/2023 20:42

So I’m going to get crucified for this, BUT, let me get this straight:

  • We pay 45% tax, thereby funding state schools
  • We do not get any benefits, and those that do get priority when it comes to state school admissions
  • We scrimp and save from what’s left after paying 45% tax to pay for our kids’ education
  • And now the state is going to add 20% to our school fees to fund state schools
  • So we pay the most to fund state schools, but when it comes to state school admissions, we are last in line

How is this fair?

It seems that in this country, the best places to be are (1) a non-dom billionaire, or (2) someone who doesn’t pay taxes, gets all the benefits, and gets priority in state school admissions. The hard working PAYE earners are screwed by parties from left, right and center.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
Scaevola · 03/10/2023 22:56

user1486984759 · 03/10/2023 22:48

People on here were contesting that people on benefits / those who do not pay taxes get priority in state school admissions. Once we agree that that IS the case, we can move onto the point whether it is right or wrong that they get priority.

As it isn't the case, then no, it's not something that will move on as you envisage.

There is nothing in the Admissions Code that says those in receipt of PP (let alone all those whose families receive benefits) must be prioritised. It is a permitted criterion (for PP, not all benefits) but not a required one.

LAC may well not be "on benefits"

Military usually aren't, despite all being PP

Bubblingblack · 03/10/2023 23:01

You’re assuming here that private education is better than state. It isn’t!
Plenty of surgeons, Doctors, lawyers come from state Ed.

user1486984759 · 03/10/2023 23:05

Scaevola · 03/10/2023 22:56

As it isn't the case, then no, it's not something that will move on as you envisage.

There is nothing in the Admissions Code that says those in receipt of PP (let alone all those whose families receive benefits) must be prioritised. It is a permitted criterion (for PP, not all benefits) but not a required one.

LAC may well not be "on benefits"

Military usually aren't, despite all being PP

It is a permitted criterion = it is the case at some schools. As it happens, the schools that are in our area do have this criterion. So this statement is true from our perspective given we can only apply to schools in our area.

Maybe we should just quit our jobs, move to the middle of nowhere and send our kids to be looked after by the state. Seems totally sustainable for the country.

OP posts:
SabrinaThwaite · 03/10/2023 23:06

@user1486984759

I think you should be careful about victim blaming the most disadvantaged children in our society. It’s really not a good look, is it?

Children with EHCPs, looked after children, children from disadvantaged backgrounds - are you really saying you don’t want them to access the means to improve their life opportunities?

user1486984759 · 03/10/2023 23:11

Bubblingblack · 03/10/2023 23:01

You’re assuming here that private education is better than state. It isn’t!
Plenty of surgeons, Doctors, lawyers come from state Ed.

Ever heard about percentages?

In seriousness, yes there are great state schools. In the areas we live in, you either have to be in one of the categories that get preference (e.g. looked after children, siblings etc.) or live 0.1 miles away from the school. In recent years, only 1-2 kids per year get in because of the distance. No straightforward way to qualify for either.

OP posts:
Walkaround · 03/10/2023 23:15

You really are scraping the barrel if you think anyone is moving themselves to an area with good schools then deliberately impoverishing themselves or abusing their children as a means of prioritising said children’s education and life prospects.

user1486984759 · 03/10/2023 23:15

SabrinaThwaite · 03/10/2023 23:06

@user1486984759

I think you should be careful about victim blaming the most disadvantaged children in our society. It’s really not a good look, is it?

Children with EHCPs, looked after children, children from disadvantaged backgrounds - are you really saying you don’t want them to access the means to improve their life opportunities?

If we are looked at like ATM machines that can just cough up 20% extra for our kids’ education despite paying hundreds of thousands in taxes every year and seeing nothing in return, that will breed some resentment, don’t you think? Furthermore, if said 20% extra is being raised to improve schools that we are sometimes (not always) last in line for.

Anyway, it’s a moot point. All Labour (🤮)have done is made sure people like me who were always on the fence will vote for Tories (🤮) in the next election.

OP posts:
SabrinaThwaite · 03/10/2023 23:19

Vote Tory. Good for you. Have a gold star.

You’re not the only ones paying shed loads of taxes, but then again I’m probably illiterate so what do I know.

treetrunx · 03/10/2023 23:24

Seeing nothing in return? What about the 93% of people who go to state schools who then go into jobs to provide goods and services that everyone depends on? Even you?

explainthistomeplease · 03/10/2023 23:32

Judging by your opinions I doubt very much you were ever on the fence @user1486984759

Walkaround · 03/10/2023 23:33

user1486984759 · 03/10/2023 23:11

Ever heard about percentages?

In seriousness, yes there are great state schools. In the areas we live in, you either have to be in one of the categories that get preference (e.g. looked after children, siblings etc.) or live 0.1 miles away from the school. In recent years, only 1-2 kids per year get in because of the distance. No straightforward way to qualify for either.

Imvho, the schools which prioritise pupil premium or LAC for places are those which set other entry criteria that must be met first, such as passing the 11 plus, which make it highly unlikely that many of these supposedly prioritised children will actually get a look in. Naming no Henrietta Barnet schools.

meditrina · 03/10/2023 23:33

For the umpteenth time, from the umpteenth poster, neither PP nor LAC is synonymous with being "on benefits"

Also, point of detail, the update to the Admissions Code which first permitted (but did not require) prioritisation by PP was introduced by the Tories in 2014.

Plus, Gove is also in favour of VAT on school fees - and with the Tory party currently in disarray, who knows where he'll end up.

HarrowToCroydon · 04/10/2023 02:30

Home school the children to some extent. Look closely at the economics of one parent working.

Araminta1003 · 04/10/2023 08:27

https://www.pepf.co.uk/about/

https://www.pepf.co.uk/fact-finder/facts-and-figures/
https://www.pepf.co.uk/opinion/

This think tank is headed by Melissa Benn, daughter of Tony and Caroline Benn. The whole family have been at this Comp idea for all for over half a century. It is not going to stop. And the private schools themselves are not really doing enough on their end to defend themselves either. They are just happy to keep taking the cash from the parents and passing the cost right through.

There is no point constantly harping on about Finland and places like Switzerland that have good state schools if you are not going to deal with the funding issues in state schools and lack of a proper support for poor kids or those with special educational needs. And not be honest about the actual fact that a large proportion of middle class educated people, even left leaning ones and those properly on the left, want their kids to go to school with educationally driven children. It is not about money, nor class. I think we need a bit more honesty in the debate, on both sides. And about the huge differences within the state sector and actual and real competition between state schools for the “best” pupils and supportive families. And the fact that Academies are in many ways private anyway and going to come up with Admissions policies to get those kids in.

I think the point about this policy disproportionately affecting London is a very valid one. Will it lead to a further exodus of children from the Capital? What are they going to do to manage that?

About - PEPF

https://www.pepf.co.uk/about/

treetrunx · 04/10/2023 08:35

How are academies in many ways private?

Bubblingblack · 04/10/2023 08:40

U OK Hun?!

morechocolateneededtoday · 04/10/2023 09:04

@user1486984759 although worded poorly, I initially gave you the benefit of the doubt and agreed that adding tax onto already massive fees is unfair.

But I really would not ever agree with moving children who are looked after anywhere down the state admissions criteria. They are the children who - through no fault of their own - have been dealt the worst cards in life. They absolutely should go to the top of the list for any school (keeping in mind they also do not have parents advocating for them the way our children do).

As for Henrietta Barnet, just take a look at the percentage of pupil premium at the school. Even by trying to attract them, they aren’t succeeding because of the high academic level at each stage of the entrance exam.

Neither of these are examples of a system against middle class parents - they are rightly there for those who need it

You are coming across as very bitter now if you want to stoop to attacking the very few benefits the most vulnerable in society get towards their education

Araminta1003 · 04/10/2023 09:52

“Secondly, race adds a layer of nuance to the complexity of this political debate. This is reflective of my own experiences as a black person and how this shaped my own education.
Studies have proven time and again that black children within the state school system are faced with prejudice, stereotype and bias when it comes to the way in which they are grouped, assessed and disciplined.
We lack data on the same issue within private schools. But independent schools are becoming more culturally diverse. We also know they help confer many other advantages which for me especially matter for my children.
Finally, my perspective on state education is compounded by my role as a governor of a Lambeth state school. I see first-hand, how and where the state school system is failing young people.
State schools are dangerously underfunded. The lack of resources, inability to source and retain staff, with more teacher strikes looming, all contribute to a ticking time bomb.
I think this is an epidemic, similar to a cataclysmic event, that we’re yet to realise its full impact and effect on future society.
Most recently, the government missed its teacher training target by 41 per cent. It means too many state school classrooms have a cycle of supply teachers, lack of subject specialists, or overstretched, underpaid, overstressed teachers.
My choice to opt for private school is a simple one.
The school fees are not too dissimilar to that of most London-based private nurseries or childminders; my husband and I saw school fees as an extension of those fees demanded during our children’s early years.
Additionally, I’ve learnt too often, life is not fair; so why should I subject my children to the same mediocre education that I received in a south London state school?
I am not from a privileged background. I am from a working class background, and I know that children only get one chance at education.
Too many state schools are currently not able to provide that brilliant, well-resourced experience all children so badly need.
A recent panel debate on private school tax by Private Education Policy Forum took place in Camden, which is a London borough where half the children attend private schools (there are 31).
But the average house price in the area costs more than £1 million, with Camden home to countless elites, including the leader of the Labour Party, Keir Starmer.
One of the PEPF debate panellists, who currently lives and attended school in Camden, passionately opined that private schools are “unfair” and “unequal”.
I always find it peculiar when middle classes ignore their own privileged background, selective education, access to networks and generational wealth, which is the epitome of what is unfair and unequal.
Their privilege has paved the way to academic and personal success. It’s ironic when the juxtaposition of rich and poor collide with overt elitism.
Maybe if I was middle class and wealthy with a million-pound property in Camden, I wouldn’t seek solace in the fee-paying school system.
What’s the solution to all this? It’s not as simple as lobbying the government to invest more money in the state education sector.
Access to more funding alone is not a solution to a pupil’s persistent absence, behavioural issues, lack of discipline or their family’s acute poverty.
The UK’s racial wealth gap indicates Black Caribbean, Black African and Bangladeshi households have 10 times less wealth than White British people.
This wealth gap exacerbates inequality for some ethnic minority parents, especially when the realities of gentrification, overcrowded social housing, poor mental health, rising cost of living and unemployment materialise.
In all fairness, I’m simply paying to break the cycle for my black children so that they, too, will have access to academic and personal success.
This kind of success has already been enjoyed by the middle classes and wealthy elites for hundreds of years.”

https://www.pepf.co.uk/opinion/dont-judge-private-school-parents-when-the-state-sector-is-so-badly-underfunded/

Well said, Diane Young

Araminta1003 · 04/10/2023 10:24

“How are academies in many ways private?”

By virtue of their trust and charitable structure, some freedom over curriculum, some freedom over admissions to attract the driven parent, sponsorship options, how they pay those at the top etc etc. The more pupils the more funding. Funding comes from Central Government, of course. But how many are run is more akin to private schools, in my opinion.

The high performing academy can become a grammar in disguise. Music aptitude, house price tests instead of 11 plus.

I think I am with this guy, opinion wise https://www.pepf.co.uk/opinion/removing-charitable-status-isnt-the-answer-more-state-school-funding-is/

https://www.pepf.co.uk/opinion/as-a-college-leader-i-can-explain-why-new-sixth-forms-like-etons-are-damaging/

And this guy, I disagree with. I agree that a FE course for 16-18 year old should not be paying VAT for those pupils. But the FE down the road from me is full of older middle class people taking psychology courses too and they should pay VAT? Or not?!

What I don’t like about the Labour policies is the desire to make everything standard for all. I like diversity and choice. Not everyone has to live in a house full of books and plants and cycle down the road and eat hummus on sourdough and eat vegan 4 days out of 7. I like the fact we are such a diverse country. I like living in an area with people from all over the world with very different values. I have some friends who are solid working classes who think my house full of old antique stuff and books is weird but funny. I think their shiny kitchens and grey walls reflect who they are and their big cars. And you know what? A lot of them are using private schools. Because they have done well for themselves and have been successful eg building businesses. Same applies to a lot of the Indian doctors who live in my area. What can a white middle class person preach to them? They cannot, because if you are coming from a position of privilege yourself like the Benns, it is hypocritical. Even is masked as “looking out” for the poor.
So part of me thinks this attack on private schools is in fact an attack by my sort of background because we have been priced out by private schools. It is just so obvious to me! However, as the academies are on our side anyway, what is there really to worry about? My kids are fine because their reading age was like 16/17 when they were 9 anyway. They don’t need private schools. And I am all for 16 plus specialist education colleges and grammars. Someone needs to look out for the middle class academic kids too.

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/liberal-democrats-oppose-labour-vat-plan-private-schools-dividing-line-parties-2646926

OP - nobody NEEDS to vote Tory or Labour. If you are anti Brexit and anti being told what to think vote Lib Dem. Tactical or not. More and more people are voting Lib Dem now. “The Liberal Democrats are currently seeking to win voters from the Conservatives in wealthy, liberal parts of the country such as suburban areas of South-East England.” And frankly, the working class lot where I live are mostly voting Tory. I don’t think this next election is as predictable as everyone makes out.

"Ending charitable status isn't the answer. More state school funding is" - PEPF

James Handscombe, state school executive principal

https://www.pepf.co.uk/opinion/removing-charitable-status-isnt-the-answer-more-state-school-funding-is/

SabrinaThwaite · 04/10/2023 11:12

The high performing academy can become a grammar in disguise. Music aptitude, house price tests instead of 11 plus.

Under the Schools Admission Code, Academies cannot introduce selection criteria. Only designated grammar schools, schools that had selective policies 25 years ago and sixth forms can be selective.

If by “house price tests” you mean that house prices are higher in certain school areas, then that is outwith the school’s control.

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 04/10/2023 11:21

SabrinaThwaite · 04/10/2023 11:12

The high performing academy can become a grammar in disguise. Music aptitude, house price tests instead of 11 plus.

Under the Schools Admission Code, Academies cannot introduce selection criteria. Only designated grammar schools, schools that had selective policies 25 years ago and sixth forms can be selective.

If by “house price tests” you mean that house prices are higher in certain school areas, then that is outwith the school’s control.

Edited

I'm not sure that is correct - I know a lot of academies that select via aptitude tests for a percentage of their cohort.

Few examples here:

Specialist aptitude tests - Wandsworth Borough Council

How to apply for a specialist aptitude place in a Wandsworth school.

https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/schools-and-admissions/admissions/secondary-school-admissions/specialist-aptitude-tests

SquirmOfEels · 04/10/2023 11:35

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 04/10/2023 11:21

I'm not sure that is correct - I know a lot of academies that select via aptitude tests for a percentage of their cohort.

Few examples here:

However, those are "also ran" schools in Wandsworth

The one that people really want to get their DC in to is Graveney - which has 70 of 280 places awarded superselectively via the Wandsworth Test

Other preferred school is Bolingbroke (colonised by those in Nappy Valley who don't go to private schools) - feeder school system so prioritised DC whose families have been there for a few years (which they will have, as people move to the area for Belleville and Honeywell primaries, making it a very expensive area compared to the other side of Nightingale Lane)

SabrinaThwaite · 04/10/2023 11:50

Ashcroft Technology Academy was founded in 1991 as a City Technology College, a type of state funded school specialising in science, technology and mathematics, which were able to be selective towards children wanting a technological education.

Chestnut Grove was similarly founded as an Arts College, with the ability to select on that basis.

As these policies were in place in 1997/8, they can be continued.

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 04/10/2023 12:19

Maybe that is something that should change?

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread