VAT on private school fees

[user1486984759]

So I’m going to get crucified for this, BUT, let me get this straight:

• We pay 45% tax, thereby funding state schools
• We do not get any benefits, and those that do get priority when it comes to state school admissions
• We scrimp and save from what’s left after paying 45% tax to pay for our kids’ education
• And now the state is going to add 20% to our school fees to fund state schools
• So we pay the most to fund state schools, but when it comes to state school admissions, we are last in line

How is this fair?

It seems that in this country, the best places to be are (1) a non-dom billionaire, or (2) someone who doesn’t pay taxes, gets all the benefits, and gets priority in state school admissions. The hard working PAYE earners are screwed by parties from left, right and center.

Gosh I worded my last post clumsily. Basically - plenty of leafy areas with all the advantages where private schools still thrive. There is no limit to privilege. There are layers and layers of it.
Our privilege was that we are two well educated parents who naturally provided support - time to chat round the dinner table, books etc. and crucially high expectations. But I imagine most of the private parents on here have those things too! We're not special!

If there’s anything that shows the innate privilege of sending kids to private schools, it’s the advice being dished out by many of them that paying your fees upfront now for the next 5 years is a way to avoid fee rises…
That’s a LOT of dosh to fork out all at once, but schools clearly think they have enough parents in a position to do so to send letters out about it.

Seems everyone know the fake tax breaks given to private schools are soon going .

Personally, I do feel that state schools
will start to improve when some of the wealthier parents start to use them. Right now we have a government run by privately educated arseholes who care little about state schools as they and their friends and their families rarely use them.
All of us being a bit more invested in the good education of all our kids will be a good thing.

We have this in our area

Competition over state pushes up house prices

It doesn’t help those who can’t get in to those specific schools though

You'd think there might already be a few wealthier parents in the 97% using state education?

I use state for my child. We could have just about afforded private. I know an awful lot of other parents in the same position. Instead we have invested in houses in the best catchments or gone for grammars/aptitude places, then extra tutoring, lots of extra curriculars and broader educational opportunities like holidays and experiences.

If private education becomes even more unaffordable, wealthier parents will just target the top comps, tutor like crazy for the grammars and do what is known as 'State Plus'.

About a third of dc school has some sort of SEN, most commonly dyslexia, adhd and a handful with autism. Intake at reception is quite small, but class sizes steadily increase each year, with many of the new joiners children who weren’t coping in local state schools.

I don’t talk openly about my dd SEN for a number of reasons, and people who know me casually probably don’t realise there is any SEN, but it was the catalyst for us looking to private. The demands of being in a class of 31 were overwhelming for her, but not ‘severe’ enough or disruptive enough to warrant extra support in a class that included children with more profound needs.

not all private schools are SEN friendly, and not all SEN can be catered for in your typical small private, but looking at dc school there is clearly a segment of students that benefit from smaller class sizes , a bit more support, and a calmer environment.

Putting aside the fact that the majority of tax paid and therefore funding for state schools is provided by parents of children going to private schools already, we now have a proposal that one supplier of education (schools in the private sector) has their output taxed, while schools in the state sector have theirs untaxed. This is like the government not putting VAT on Tesco products but Waitrose customers must pay VAT because, well it’s Waitrose and Waitrose is posh. So pay up. And why don’t you just go to Tesco, you pigs?

How naive.

if we had to move back to state I would fight like hell to make sure my children got everything they needed. I could afford to hire SEN consultants, private specialists and lawyers if needed. There is nothing I or my private school parent peers can do about school budgets or SEN provision or educational policy more broadly, but I can make sure my dc gets as much as I can wrestle from the system via sharp elbows and deep pockets. You really are much happier for us to stay private.

Another here whose dc we’re partly in independent due to SeN .

In one case his needs were so severe that he attended an independent specialist school. Most dc there were funded by their LEA but ours is notoriously hopeless on SeN so we , and most of the others from our county self funded, VAT would have crippled us. Our local state school were quite honest that in the words of the Headteacher ‘your son would be a drain on our resources’ and ‘ we do not see him obtaining qualifications’ . He has 7 GCSEs , a BTEC , a good job in the NHS, has travelled independently and has just started with the OU. And he pays tax , he is not a drain on anyone.

in the second case they coped very well in mainstream but there are lots of things about the independent school structure which just helped. Not least the long school day with lots of breaks to recalibrate, the fact that every teacher knew his name regardless of whether they taught him, the ability to do just about any combination of subjects; no putting you on ‘pathways’ , lots of lateral stretch and the benign and kindly approach to discipline. I wanted the exams to be a biproduct of their education not the purpose.

however if someone asked why we chose private, especially someone who didn’t know the school I would probably just say ‘grades’ because I don’t want to discuss it and get berated for something they don’t understand.

There's no fake tax breaks as there's no tax on education. That's the case in almost every country in the world.

Also, the bar for schools to warrant sending out emails to all parents is very low. You only need a couple of students to come in wearing the wrong shoes and everyone gets an email reminding parents of the schools uniform policy. So of course some schools will have contacted parents about pre-paying fee's. Mostly just to make clear that the situation is still very much unclear.

Do you think even the very wealthy have £150k+ just sitting around? It will be equity releasing through a remortgage which will fund this in almost all cases. That's the equity they built up by starting a family late (you rarely see a young mum at private school gates).

Fair enough if that’s your experience. But it’s not mine. It’s absolutely standard where I am. And the many, many threads on MN about moving for schools or schools being a critical factor in where to buy suggests mine is the more common experience.

There are very many parents who buy into better schools through house purchase. It’s not a myth; it’s a reality. I do notice, though, that some MNers will never accept it happens. That’s because it either troubles their conscience or interferes with a ‘noble’ political point of view of theirs, IMO.

In our city the Secondaries are ALL good or outstanding, rated by OFSTED and parents experiences, yet we have half a dozen private ones - including one of the most expensive in the country.
Parents are buying privilege and social connections, they aren’t being forced into private’s schools because of shortage of places or because the state schools are bad.

their choice. But crying about the business you use to educate your children putting their prices up as being unfair, or discriminatory in some way? Do me a favour.

How about this as an alternative: parents with a child not on FSM at a state school pays 20% of the per pupil subsidy they get from the state in fees to their school. That would raise a lot more money and be a lot fairer. Leave us private school parents out of it.

We bought into the idea that a British private education as the best start we could give our DS. After years of struggling to pay the extortionate fees ( DS was one of the most selective boys boarding schools) we finally saw sense after his GCSE'S. I only wish we had done this years earlier.

To say his experience of 6th form has been superb is an understatement. No more unqualified teachers unwilling or unable to move on, no more poor living conditions ( God knows where our money was being spent), no more priority given to families of big donors, no more burseries to families connected to the Church of England (who live in very very expensive homes but this seems to go noticed by the school 🙈).and no more drunken housemasters always missing in action.

The toxic environment at these institutions is very unhealthy, just look at the recent Prime Ministers they have unleashed on the UK.
Honestly if you have to move your children it may well be the best thing that ever happened to your family, it was for ours.

I am looking forward to seeing the back of the Tories this year, they don't appreciate the fantastic teachers in our state schools ( they actually look down on them ) or any of the other public sector workers for that matter. The are the most corrupt, incapable bunch of bafoons who have destroyed the country on every level.
The election can't come quickly enough for me.

@Dothefandangos the school we left was also ‘excellent’ according to ofsted, but was a disaster for anyone with Sen. Not sure ofsted measures anything that really matters. We’ve also seen our local (highly coveted) secondary go from ‘outstanding’ to ‘requires improvement’ recently, and all the teachers I know bemoan how bad behaviour has become, how they are unable to fill vacancies, etc. maybe it used to be a great school, but it is not somewhere I would be tripping over myself to get a place at now. I think a lot of schools are in the same boat, and unfortunately only see it getting worse in years ahead. And yes, some children will find a way to do well anywhere, but honestly that argument is like saying school doesn’t matter at all.

maybe schools in your area are better than mine, maybe schools in your area aren’t as good as you think/remember. I come from another country and find the state of uk schools appalling- my nephews are in a state school there and the environment is much closer to our uk private than our uk state options. The state schools I have seen really aren’t enough for any child.

there is no prestige or social status attached to our small non-selective indie - all I get is a really good education in a supportive and respectful environment. Something I should not have to pay to get, and something that shouldn’t be considered a luxury.

you sound very bitter and a bit out of touch with schools today as well as what really happens in the majority of private schools.

The state schools teachers I have met through work and through my kids, have been superb. Educated, qualified, experienced and more importantly people with REAL life experience from a mix of backgrounds.
The way our government sneers at them, blames them, belittles them and undervalues them is a fucking disgrace.

And yet I see no sign that labour has any tangible plan for fixing education. Just a spiteful policy that attacks the schools that are working well and has the potential to further destabilise the sector.

You can’t judge a state school on sixth form alone. I had a very miserable time at my state comp which resulted in serious mental health issues. Once I got into sixth form
things changed significantly because all the people who didn’t want to learn and were causing trouble left. Also, you can apply to any state sixth form but that isn’t the case for the younger years, you are restricted by catchment unless you can find a place in an undersubscribed school out of catchment. If, like me, your catchment school is terrible (to the extent that a friend who taught at the school told me
not to send my kids there) and all none-catchment schools are oversubscribed, you have no choice but to consider private school.

I have one at state (super-selective grammar so the catchment issue wasn’t relevant) and one at private and will consider state for my private school DC at sixth form. But 11-16 and sixth form are two completely different things.

As far as the politicians you are referring to, they tend to go to a very narrow range of elite private schools. There are lots of other private schools in the UK. It is completely unfair to represent them all as being the same, just as it would be unfair to say that all state school are rubbish.

‘How about this as an alternative: parents with a child not on FSM at a state school pays 20% of the per pupil subsidy they get from the state in fees to their school. That would raise a lot more money and be a lot fairer. Leave us private school parents out of it.’

what the literal fuck. How about private schools don’t get tax breaks that they aren’t entitled to.
No-one from the state sector is coming ‘after’ private school parents - YOUR schools are the ones gouging you on your fees. You can turn your children’s education over to a business then complain to even else about how much that business charges.
Thats between you and them.

They don’t HAVE to charge parents any more than they do now - particularly when so many private schools have been increasing fees by 5/6/7 % year after year.
Is that everyone else’s fault too?

Touch a nerve did it? The thought of actually paying something for what you currently get for free on the back of someone else’s labour? How about for once stop sucking from the state and pay your own way in life?

How about private schools don’t get tax breaks that they aren’t entitled to.

The current ground of the tax break entitlement is on the basis of providing education. So parents who using state money for education are entitled to for tax break but some other parents who paying tax but not using state money are not???.... Freeloader!

Maybe we should go the whole way in redistribution? State schools with small class sizes, outstanding and swimming pool access is clearly unfair.

We could reduce the funding to those (merge some classes), fewer teachers, and put the saved money into the underperforming, large classes, big city schools.

I posted on a similar thread recently.

My issue with this is that it just won't have the desired impact.

My husband and I both already work full time to afford the fees so we would need to move our children back into state school...so that's 2 more places to fund (one of whom has SEN). And rather than slog my guts out to afford fees I'll just reduce my hours so that I'm not paying so much tax...tax which funds the state school system.

A group of grammar school heads has just petitioned the government not to go through with this policy, as it will make it even harder for poorer students to get grammar school places. More applicants with more money to pay for tutoring and a greater ability to buy in catchment (which of course applies to the best comprehensive too). It's not just parents on MN who are worried about this.