VAT on private school fees

[user1486984759]

So I’m going to get crucified for this, BUT, let me get this straight:

• We pay 45% tax, thereby funding state schools
• We do not get any benefits, and those that do get priority when it comes to state school admissions
• We scrimp and save from what’s left after paying 45% tax to pay for our kids’ education
• And now the state is going to add 20% to our school fees to fund state schools
• So we pay the most to fund state schools, but when it comes to state school admissions, we are last in line

How is this fair?

It seems that in this country, the best places to be are (1) a non-dom billionaire, or (2) someone who doesn’t pay taxes, gets all the benefits, and gets priority in state school admissions. The hard working PAYE earners are screwed by parties from left, right and center.

@herethereandeverywhere my state school experience was similar in the 2010s so not ages ago! I was used a classroom assistant teaching other children maths, I should have been in top set but I joined late and there was no room. My A Level history teacher went on maternity leave and we had six teachers who each changed the curriculum - we started on the French Revolution and ended up doing Irish Famine, nobody got higher than a C. Children throwing chairs at teachers in top set GCSE science. All at an outstanding school people tried to get into to avoid the ‘rough’ school a mile down the road!

I am fully supportive of the views of @user1486984759.

We live in a part of North West London where my daughter goes to a great state primary school. However secondary options are limited. Grammar School options are limited and extremely competitive with a 1 in 30 chance of getting in, which usually means that there are a lot of disappointed parents. The only good state secondary schools are linked to various churches or synagogues. For someone who is not Christian or doesn't want to forcefully attend church, I am sometimes very frustrated why there are so many state funded religious schools that use my tax money but won't admit my child on the basis that we don't want to attend church. Not just is this unfair, this is also a highly discriminatory practice in my view, but we can’t do anything about it. We could have cheated the system by moving close to a good state school with very tight catchment just before admissions time (like many on this board who are vouching for state schools have possible done), but we'd rather not do that.

That leaves us with academically selective private secondary schools as the only options as we want our daughter to be in an environment where she is challenged intellectually. We are not rich parents, but honest, hard-working parents who don’t have a choice and don’t want to cheat in the system. When VAT is being discussed on top on the already high fees and there are so many parents justifying that, I am very frustrated that they don’t necessarily understand the circumstances of the various hard working MC taxpayers, and simply respond by saying “send your kids to state schools”.

If people are keen on ensuring social equality, then we should have a system where there is religious discrimination when it comes to state school admissions. That in my view will have a lot more profound impact on the quality of schools in this country than charging VAT on private schools.

....we should have a system where there is no religious discrimination when it comes to state school admissions

Every single outstanding school, and nearly every good school, in London is heavily oversubscribed. Please elaborate how the state system can just accommodate more students. There may be outstanding/good state schools with places in some remote suburb but parents aren’t just going to move there overnight.

As has been said upthread, it’s not so much numbers - the state school roll is falling generally - but that parents with sufficient money (many of them loudly anti-private) will just buy into better state schools’ catchments.

The problem is the maintenance of differential, grotesquely hypocritically, without actually solving any problems in state education. Which includes putting some extra strain, but probably not that much, on state ed budgets.

I think it depends. London and the Home Counties will feel it most. I read somewhere that 25% of 6th Form students go to private schools in London, and the state schools are full. Things are tight in London and a few percentage points either way could destroy the balance.

In more rural, less crowded areas it might not be felt much.

Fair. 👍

I had heard the opposite - that a lot of London state primaries had been closing down recently due to lack of children in their catchments, because London house prices, cost of living and covid meant a lot of families moved out of the capital altogether. Not surprising the schools that are left are now full, therefore.

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/study-reveals-full-scale-of-london-pupil-exodus-amid-school-closures/

“Looked after children” get priority in school admissions. I may be wrong but I suspect most of those are from families that are net recipients of state funds rather than net payers.

A lot of schools give admissions priority to kids on “pupils premium” or “free school meals”. Let me guess, parents on benefits?

Maybe they are shit schools in shit areas. Maybe they are affiliated to religious denominations and a lot of parents don’t want their kids to be brainwashed these days. I can only speak to the areas I have lived in where, for outstanding schools, the furthest distance tends to be around 0.1m away from the school door.

@user1486984759 - the population of children in London is rapidly declining, if you read the article. I don’t think you can actually argue it is because all the schools that are closing are genuinely “shit.”

But why do people leave London when their eldest child is in Year 5? Because they panic about the secondary school options. So they move out to Bucks, Kent for grammars or an outstanding comp in Cambridge or Surrey etc. So it is the squeeze on secondary school places and the huge competition in private schools that drives them out in the first place. If the catchment of an outstanding comp is going to cost you 300k in London then you pay private or move out. Even private schools can be far cheaper outside of London or the South East. It is all about the Maths and the taxes for those with options.

Fair enough. That doesn’t change the fact that we did genuinely tried to enroll our kids in state schools but only got allocated schools that were either a mile away or were below “good”. We did not consider anything below “good” because we have heard too many bad stories ranging from kids bringing knives to school, smoking marijuana in class, physically assaulting their teachers.

So as far as we are concerned, the state school system failed us. You lot can call it a “luxury” all you want. It’s akin to telling the shopkeeper that hires private security guard that he’s opting for the luxury option and disregard the fact that he does so because the state funded police failed because they don’t even investigate shoplifting / burglaries anymore.

FFS.

“Looked after children” get priority in school admissions. I may be wrong but I suspect most of those are from families that are net recipients of state funds rather than net payers.

Yes, you are very wrong.

“Looked after children” are children in public care.

we did genuinely tried to enroll our kids in state schools but only got allocated schools that were either a mile away or were below “good”.

A whole mile away? How absolutely dreadful for you.

@user1486984759 a whole mile away? Goodness. How dreadful

We'd need to buy out the schools that are owned by the faith organisations. Bottom line is that the state doesn't own those schools.

They're not (with the recent exceptions of those founded under the free schools arrangements) state schools which are allowed to have a faith character. They are church schools, established before state schooling was set up, currently in co-operation with the state sector. Which didn't take them over back then, and simply can't afford to do so now. The last time the country thought it was rich (roughly early 90s until credit crunch), there were other spending priorities. And in the latter part of it the Blair/Brown administration was allowing more faith schools to be created, rather than seeking to reduce numbers

Yes, and why exactly are those children in public care?

Why do YOU think children end up in care?

Let’s see, here’s some starters for ten for you: neglect, parental illness, abuse, parental incarceration, abandonment.

Yes, exactly the sort of people who are also on benefits.

You are probably illiterate but just in case here is the top girls’ grammar school in the country literally stating how they prioritize kids on pupils premium and looked after children: https://henrietta-barnett.ams3.digitaloceanspaces.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/24141559/HBS-Admissions-Policy-for-Entry-in-2023-2024-Determined.docx.pdf

@user1486984759 a few days ago you referred to the utter contempt in which people that work hard are (allegedly) held.

Perhaps you could take a moment to consider the utter contempt with which you are now talking about some of the most vulnerable people in society, and helpless children at that.

I don't understand @user1486984759 - do you have a problem with the most disadvantaged children in our society being given priority?

People on here were contesting that people on benefits / those who do not pay taxes get priority in state school admissions. Once we agree that that IS the case, we can move onto the point whether it is right or wrong that they get priority.

Military families also get pupil premium and special consideration under the Admissions Code.

What's the actual point here?

That LAC are "on benefits" - not true, as DC adopted from LAC still qualify, no matter how affluent their new family. That a handful of selective grammar schools use PP as a criterion (to level the playing field a bit for those who cannot afford tutoring)

It is only the case at some state schools. In my LA looked after children get priority but benefits/pupil premium recipients are not in the admissions criteria at all.