Is anyone else worried about the effect of rising private school fees on state schools?

[BabyIcecream]

Where I live there already aren't enough school places. Three big state secondary's, one is catholic, they are all over subscribed and bursting at the seams using old buildings with not enough funding.

Ive seen reports that at some private schools upto a third of pupils might leave if the fees go up due to VAT.

I'm worried about all these extra pupils needing places, DS already finds his school overcrowded and whilst I don't agree with private education putting extra pupils into the state system is just going to further disadvantage our children.

Unless money raised by increasing private schools costs is going to be used to fund state education? Does anyone know?

I will be voting Labour for the first time, I usually vote for the Lib Dems. I would love if this was the beginning of the end of private schools in this country, particularly boarding schools. I saw how toxic these schools are when my DS attended a big name (as they say on MN). They are not "genteel charitable set ups" , I doubt very much that it will my DS"s former school will suffer too much but one can only hope.

These toxic organizations will sadly continue just as they have for hundreds of years. It's a great start though and I am delighted that the Labour party will be doing this.

That's mainly because state primaries don't teach the content of the 11+ exam by the end of year 5

Verbal reasoning and non-verbal reasoning aren't directly taught as part of the National Curriculum, thus putting children from state primaries at a disadvantage. Private schools aren't obliged to follow the NC, so can teach for the test. Anyone would think the whole grammar system is set up to be biased towards pupils with wealthy parents?

Just wanted to add, next time you go into an estate agent, or talk to a recruitment agency, ask the 20/30 something which school they went to.

Most are from some posh private school, where they went, got a nice accent and a lot of confidence, but don't have any decent qualifications.

The places are full of them.

Most private schools have delayed major infrastructure projects as per the old Eton finance director’s advice. DS’ school is planning to rebuild it’s Secondary school, buy an entire fleet of buses, and remove burseries for state educated students except for those who qualify for fsm in 2025. There are also discussions about lowering fees overall by making it a requirement for secondary students to attend it’s primary & increasing class sizes at primary - that would mean fees reduce by 20-30%.

Also the richest parents with their own businesses can claim back Vat - and there is some discussion about the legality of the friends association setting up a business account to pay fees on behalf of parents to claim back vat so it can be used to pay towards children’s fees. It would mean future fee increases could reduce dramatically.

I believe you @morechocolateneededtoday - I made exactly this choice about 10 years ago. Put 4 kids through private schooling and make partner and work all hours, or do professional support law and some transactional work on a part time basis. I chose the latter and am happy with my choice. Even my husband has cut back a bit. There is no point killing yourself and paying 45% tax and just getting hate for it. My DCs were all happy in grammars, 2 at Oxford now. I was always there “tutor”. All the research shows a child’s outcome is primarily determined by their mother’s educational status anyway. Schools only add a bit to the overall picture. The government can f.. off. It is not great for female equality though but I think I see it as a transition process to hopefully a more Scandinavian based system for all. Ever the optimist here…

I suppose we are lucky as DCs state primary offers most of the above and we live in an area that is rich with clubs and activities. Plus a tight knit and diverse community where people really help each other out, enabling parents to work, etc. There are definite advantages to local primaries, while I understand it’s not black and white and circumstances vary.

No I won’t be quitting because my youngest son has nearly finished prep but I may have made a different decision when I originally went back to work over ten years ago. Some of my female colleagues did because, like me, their DH’s also had very full on jobs.
I did not want to return to work to the detriment of my DCs as I feel that extra curriculars are important. We could have afforded for me to give up work if our DCs went to state primary. For many years almost all of my salary was taken up by school fees. I didn’t contribute to household costs (mortgage, bills etc) until very recently - our oldest child is now in state secondary. It’ we very common in working professional families - one parent pays the household costs and the other the school fees.

I fear a lot of working mums will do this, me included, so the state will receive even less in taxes and have more pressure on them with more children to accommodate in the state system. Another way to discourage work and reducing equality once again.

And on the subject of grammars, our local grammars are all full of very hardworking Asian kids, many of whom want to go to med school and are trained from an early age to work really hard. We should value that culture and hopefully they will actually be able to hack the relentless job of being a doctor on the NHS, being badly paid for their brain power and constantly experiencing abuse from the public and death by paperwork via the system. Same as teachers. All of this lot deserve way more money and way more respect as it is far easier to go into law, banking, tech etc be paid really well and also have the option to work from home.

As for the naive 20 something poster who is allegedly a Labour supporter but wants to buy a 2nd home, you are part of the problem. Understand your own privilege first. We are all biased! That is human nature.

@Sashahasnotslept I think our DS attended the same school , if only we could see the back of this institution. I also live in hope, they have done so much damage.

In State Grammars the kids who tend to want to be doctors tend to be the children of doctors. In fact locally the kids who go to State Grammar and the kids who go to Private Selectives tend to come from the same type of families - rich, well to do, mostly 2nd or 3rd gen ‘General Practioner’ families. This idea that State Grammars are improving social mobility is completely false.

@DustyLee123
FFS "those that don't want to pay" fucking hell. You need a reality check on so many levels.

I totally agree with your last sentiment there. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's like a constant race to the bottom. Our DC go to a great state primary but we want to send them to private secondary. Our state secondary is 'ok' but there seems to be an endemic where we live of entitled chavvy parents with no interest in education because DH did fine with no qualifications and look at him with his big car and fancy trainers and me with my monthly Botox.
We want our kids to be inspired by education have lots of sports opportunities and not have to spend their days dealing with disruptive kids and teachers not able to do anything about it. Kids from homes where they've been told school isn't important and 'they have rights'🙄

But here we are being demonised by wanting the best for our kids, despite the fact we pay wads of tax already through PAYE. We're not wealthy and would need to move mountains to afford fees with VAT added so we're having to consider our options.

A massive proportion of parents at DC current prep school are planning this way. Currently the norm is 2 parents working and children in wraparound but so many I speak to are looking at moving to state at next transition point (with associated house move if required) and then cutting back work commitments.

It pushes women back into roles of working less and being at home more but ultimately, my salary increases will never come close to DH (thank you government) so makes sense he continues the FT work and I work less.

In some ways, the VAT on fees will make our decision for us as we have spent endless time deliberating whether to go state or private for secondary. There is nothing to consider if this goes through and it will be right when DC1 is coming into Y5 so we will only have 2 years of 2 sets of fees to pay

Well as Keir believes women can have penises then why would he even have thought this through??

But I have the very real example of my SIL who absolutely will scale back her GP commitments.

I suggest people start emailing Keir

[email protected]

I wouldn't worry.

Parents with the money to pay for private school now swapping to state might have an interest in making sure the state school is better equipped.

@sashh yet again why is it our responsibility to raise the standards in state schools? Why can't existing parents do that? Why do you think they will listen to private parents more than they listen to state parents?
Also you realise private parents will just pay for tutors and move house to get into the best state schools? They won't send their kids to the local sink state school.

“In State Grammars the kids who tend to want to be doctors tend to be the children of doctors. In fact locally the kids who go to State Grammar and the kids who go to Private Selectives tend to come from the same type of families - rich, well to do, mostly 2nd or 3rd gen ‘General Practioner’ families. This idea that State Grammars are improving social mobility is completely false.”

Who said becoming a doctor is improving your social mobility? Everyone knows that you get paid far more and have a far easier life doing many other jobs now. Let’s say you have GP qualifications - you can work privately now in the City of London seeing civilised people for far more cash or even just do online work in the private health care sector! Or you can do Botox plus nutritional advice and go on Insta and make a whole lot more cash that way.
Plumbing and building, landlord businesses all far more lucrative for the smart person.

Look at what the former NHS dentists are doing now. It is all one big middle finger up to the system. Why should these people work hard, study hard etc and be bashed by the system. Most doctors I know (and I do know a ton of them) massively discourage their DC from going into medicine. Of course, not all pesky DC listen.
These things do come in waves though - I suspect with the shortage of doctors they will be very well paid again in the future and command respect as well. It is supply and demand.

@Heatherbell1978 “Our state secondary is 'ok' but there seems to be an endemic where we live of entitled chavvy parents with no interest in education because DH did fine with no qualifications and look at him with his big car and fancy trainers and me with my monthly Botox.”
You need to move to a place like Cambridge with all the kids of academics and the great state schools. Oh wait - housing costs a fortune there. Cut down your hours, work from home, downsize and live in a nice place like that. And you won’t even get taxed on the capital gains in your house and judging by the statistics, Cambridge uni is quite happy to admit a disproportionate amount of local kids too, to top it off.

Totally. We will do this snd contribute even less in taxes as I will need to work less. My DCs are at school 08.00-17.30 and I work 8.30-17.00. There are great provisions for holiday care with small groups of friends. I'm not going to send them to breakfast and after school care in a state school or random holiday clubs - so will cut hours massively - especially as I wont have the incentive to earn enough for school fees.

“Nobody gives a sh.. about the young and Education. It is all NHS, house prices bollocks as usual.”

Exactly. Why are they not suggesting adding VAT to private healthcare to reduce inequality there? £47bn per year is spent on private healthcare in the UK. Taxing that would arguably raise far more money than VAT on school fees. If their policies were really about reducing inequality, why not tax healthcare too? I suspect it’s because taxing your grandmother on a hip replacement wouldn’t be politically popular.

Let’s not pretend that this policy is anything more than a perceived vote winner.

If I don’t have to pay school fees (tbc) I’m planning to work part time only. I want to spend time with my children, not with a computer.

I completely agree with the comments about this policy meaning that many mothers will stop working/ cut back hours. Thus paying less taxes and resulting in a shortage of vital roles such as in the NHS etc.
This is certainly the case for us. I will only return to full time work if we decide to send our DC to private school. A 20% rise in fees will mean that they go to a state school instead.

The tired comparison with private healthcare is fallacious. Private healthcare does not perpetuate and entrench lifelong inequality in the same way. VAT on fees is not only about raising the money, it is also about addressing that inequality.

Government, the judiciary, the legal profession, elite sport and so on are not populated by people simply because they had their tonsils out in a BUPA hospital.