Girls who DON’T study STEM

[Ippagoggy]

As a woman in STEM (I work as a quant for a hedge fund and I studied maths for my undergrad and computer science for my phd), I am often dragged into discussions at work about “why there aren’t there more women in our field?”

while there are a number of hypotheses put forward (I won’t bother repeating them), one thing that is generally acknowledged that the phenomenon starts early, with fewer girls taking these subjects at school (at least in the west) and this then leads to a “pipeline problem”.

I therefore would love to ask the women on here — both of their own experiences from
their school days and what they might observe of their daughters. Why have you or your daughter NOT chosen a study path or career in STEM? Was it simply that there was never any interest (and fair enough! Different people like different things)? Was there a lack of exposure in some way? Or maybe their interest in your part was but you felt discouraged from pursuing that interest for one reason or another? And what would those reasons have been?

By the way, to be clear, I am not passing any judgement on the value of STEM subjects versus non-STEM. We need both. I am just genuinely curious to understand how people are wired.

for me, when I was about 11 years old and has access to a computer that I was allowed to play with — I could not believe my eyes. This box was basically like magic and the thought that I could actually learn to make it do things was intoxicating. I became a nerd overnight.

This is interesting. I can relate to not wanting to be "wrong". I wonder what that says about our society and education system.

People have natural proclivities. I'm from an Asian country (HK) and was never inclined to what we now call 'STEM' subjects. Admittedly, there was never a drive towards them in my day, especially for girls. I doubt I would be very much interested today.

DH is not a STEM type either. My DD is showing an early talent for mathematics, however.

Guided perhaps more than taught.

I simply wasn't interested, then or now.

(NC for details).

I loved STEM. I had encouraging teachers at school who saw my talents and enthusiasm and supported me to get good grades, and encouraged me to apply to Oxford (from a very ordinary state school where very people went on to uni). So I studied Biochemistry at Oxford and got a 2:1 but chose not to go on to do a PhD as the career path into being a science academic seemed too difficult (post-docs in god knows how many locations, all the grant writing, tiny possibility of ever running my own lab). Also I became aware of the social sciences when I was studying, and went on to make a career there instead - it's totally possible to have multiple talents and be interdisciplinary.

I think it's worth thinking about how different scientific disciplines have different gender balances. When I was at uni, the Biology cohort was mostly female; Biochem was about 50:50; and Physics, Chemistry, Engineering, and Maths were mostly male. I genuinely don't think that's anything to do with 'innate gender talents' (bleargh) as much as social environment - when I was going to uni open days, I was completely turned off by Imperial College and UMIST (as was) because they just seemed completely male dominated. I knew that I was as smart as anyone else, but - given a choice - I didn't want to be in that kind of space for 4 years, and I had a choice. I also was the only girl studying Further Maths A-level and didn't want to have that experience again.

For what it's worth, the 'pipeline problem' has been fairly comprehensively debunked across science and tech. It's not about there being too small a pool to feed into a pipeline - it's about workplace culture and norms which push women (and minority groups too) out of STEM at all levels of their careers. Workplace sexism, pregnancy discrimination, 'culture fit' expectations of what a scientist looks like, sexual harassment; plus, in academia, the super-hierarchical structures means that toxic men who create toxic lab cultures will almost certainly stay in role if they raise massive grants. This is a pretty good summation, wrt physics: https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24032031-900-women-in-physics-why-theres-a-problem-and-how-we-can-solve-it/

I intended to do STEM subjects but was put off by maths. I now believe I had undiagnosed dyscalculia, even though I was top in other subjects.

My daughter has a PhD in a STEM subject, my son's are in more traditionally female roles. Another has dyscalculia so, like me, will probably opt for other directions because of it.

I've encouraged my children to follow their interests but I have no problem with the concept that men and women may innately be more drawn in particular directions, rather than that it's all about being socialised that way. The key is provide each child with a variety of experiences that allows them to choose their direction.

I went to a girls' school and then to a mixed VI form where 2/3 of the students were boys.

Boys got priority. No they demanded priority.

As a teacher in computer science classes the first thing I do is move the girls so they are together. Girls are often used to seperate or calm down their male peers.

It's actually taught as a techniche to control the class. I have no problem with doing boy, girl, boy, girl in a 50/50 class but when there are 5 girls and 20 boys I don't seperate them.

It's a girls' job to learn, not police her peers.

I am going to duck into this thread and then run far, far away. I do have several women in my family who took pure STEM routes and work in male-dominated fields.

Some teenagers do STEM subjects as they have to because it is needed for a particular career path- medicine spring to mind. Teenagers in this category seem to be evenly spread between boys and girls.

Other teenagers do STEM subjects because they really enjoy them. The majority of this group are boys. I don’t know why and I don’t know how this can be overcome. I do know that most of the adults I know, male and female, who actually enjoyed STEM subjects have somewhat similar personality traits. Most people with these personality traits are male.

In my defence, I point to the many posters in this thread (presumably mostly female) saying they were bright enough to do STEM but much preferred English and history.

runs away and hides.

I didn’t really have access to computers growing up. I remember we had one computer class in high school for one term I think. We did some basic programming. I’ve always loved knowing how to do stuff in computers but didn’t think about training in IT for example. I’m also terrible at maths, or maybe I’m not and just learn differently. I for my degree in business mgt and work with numbers.

my Dd loves maths, says it’s her favourite thing and is picking it up quickly. She’s young yet, but I tell her all about the different jobs there are and don’t narrow her vision which is probably one of the most important things. She can do whatever she sets her mind to. I tell me sons the same thing.

Simple: I was terrible at maths, so tried a science a level and failed.

We had computers at school but they took about three years to load one photo. I didn’t even know what coding was.

I loved science the best.

I was strongly discouraged from any career by my mother who decided our most important thing was to quickly find a husband and get married. The only jobs we were allowed to have have secretary, nurse, or hairdresser.

I rebelled and didn't listen.ni wanted to be an astronaut but my vision was too poor for that so decided on computer science. I kept my uni applications a secret.

This was the late 70s. I only told them about a week before I was to leave for university in California.
She didn't speak to me for a year.

Ended up with quite a few stem degrees, patents, etc.

My adult children are somewhat interested in stem but never really pursued it. They were more entrepreneurial. My granddaughter did.

Dd is doing a stem subject at university and is coincidentally doing the same course as one of her friends from school- another girl. Their school was a girls grammar. They both find it bemusing and annoying that boys on the course will often try to take over and mansplain something to the girls on the course - boys from a mixed school.
Fortunately neither girl had to endure this during secondary so didn’t realise this existed before now but are able to see it for what it is.

You computers loaded pictures?

We had a comodore Pet - green screen, capital letters only and no mouse.

I just found the arts and humanities more interesting. Also, this will sound terrible, but to be brutally honest I associated STEM with boring, strict or nerdy people (possibly influenced by the teachers I had, plus the types of schoolmates that gravitated to different subjects). My idea of a "woman in STEM" would have been someone who spurned all things feminine and wanted to be like the boys, and that wasn't me.

I was good at maths and sometimes wished I had pursued it, but what I got out of maths was basically the satisfaction of "doing sums" and solving little problems. I wasn't really interested in advanced concepts that start to stretch into physics. (Hated bloody physics!)

Hated our school IT lessons. Boring and the teachers were all oddball men who thought computers were intrinsically fascinating (I didn't).

I now make a living out of being a "people person" and good communicator in tech! That's become my strength or USP - I basically see myself as a secretly non-techy person who just wants to make people's working lives better and cut through the mess. I try and be the friendly face of it all, and show people it's not scary.

I suppose I like solving problems and helping people, and I'm not really interested in building things, or how physical structures work, or stuff like AI. And it's the latter stuff that you hear about when you hear about STEM.

Dd1 did 3 STEM A levels ( one of only 2 girls taking physics to A2) DD2 did 4 STEM A levels to A2 , again only 3 girls doing FM.
I think both felt pretty ignored by male teachers who bantered a lot with the boys, and so we're always there when they wanted help, and treated the girls as not being as bright.
I think with Enhlish language and essay writing subjects you can waffle and make your own theories up. STEM subjects are a lot more brutal.You have to understand often difficult concepts and be able to apply them to new situations there is nowhere to hide. It is either right or wrong.

I was a kid with long absences at school due to illness. I was able to keep up with most subjects just by reading but maths became an ever more mysterious and tricky subject as the years went by and the holes in my knowledge got bigger. I loved the sciences but it was clear that lack of maths skills was a limiting factor for a-levels.

If I'd have had access to the kind of online maths platforms that my kids have now then I reckon I would have had a much better chance.

I’m not sure if I would have gone into STEM… but I did enjoy science a lot, especially biology. Unfortunately, my health condition just made me realise that there wasn’t many careers in STEM that I could go into that I would enjoy and would be able to accommodate my needs. I considered teaching science but ultimately decided on primary, although I plan science each year and I do love teaching it so hope I inspire some girls later on.

Maths was my best subject and I loved messing about on computers but I didn't wasn't to take computer science as s gcse option because only the nerdy boys were going to study it, none of my friends. I wasn't passionate about computers enough to do it despite the social side. Also by that point I planned to be a type of people - person professional. That didn't work out snd I'm in stem now as a product manager but I don't regret not taking C.s. and taking the long way round to tech. So yeah it was social stuff early on.

I did well academically at school but just always felt that the STEM subjects were boring, harder to get my head around.

I hated maths with a passion.

I always wanted to know..."....but why?" and "How would this be applied in a practical way?" and was always discouraged by teachers ("Never mind why, just do the exercise").

I'm the kind of person who needs to discuss and understand these things to make it 'make sense' to me but that wasn't the way of 'education'.

I went to school in the 90s so IT was mainly moving a green and black 'turtle' around the screen. I genuinely don't remember anything useful being discussed, so again, it just didn't pique my interest.

Roll on to now and I'm very interested in neuroscience and lots of aspects of tech including AI.

As a kid in a working class area all the adults I knew outside of school worked in factories, butchers, as security guards, in shops or behind bars, etc. I had zero understanding of what professional jobs existed beyond 'teaching'.

I just couldn't see what potential uses and careers I would get from STEM. The only people I knew with STEM qualifications were my teachers and I knew I didn't want to be a teacher.

I went on to study law, and I kid you not that this was primarily because Ally McBeal was a popular TV programme (comedy drama about a US lawyer) and that was the best insight I had into 'careers' at that time.

We had a 'careers advisor' come in sometimes but I only remember getting to meet them once and I didn't feel like they had much more insight either.

From Reception I loved reading and writing; i believe girls tend to develop strong verbal skills early so humanities is often an easier route. My dad was a good guy - I was the one who helped with the DIY not my brother - but still DB got more “boys toys” at birthdays and Christmas. I remember desperately wanting a chemistry set but no one took me seriously. Over time the tiny biases nudge you in a particular direction, I think. I did a degree in history in the end. For many years I had desperately wanted to study Psychology but I was persuaded by parents and school to “do what Alevels I’m best at” - and maths, biology and chemistry were seen as the required path for Psychology and I was clearly better at English and History.

My DD age 12 is interested in maths and history; but her real talent is managing small children and she’s like the Pied Piper of Hamlin to the little ones in our neighbourhood. So her ambition is to coast through school and become a primary school headteacher. As we need more of them, I’m encouraging her.

Due to AI, I fear for a lot of entry level. I wouldn’t encourage any child in a particular direction right now for this reason. I buy gifts and experiences and extracurriculars across a broad spectrum. Despite egging her on to do coding I cannot get DD interested. Shame really!

Oh man @wheresmymojo , I totally hear you on the turtle and on Ally McBeal! 😂

I can't do maths. Like, I literally struggle with the most simple calculations, finding change in shops etc. Physics and chemistry were an extension of this. I loved biology but I was very artsy, creative, expressive and I loved art, history and writing. As an adult, I actually am quite interested in STEM now but my brain doesn't work mathematically enough to do anything to with calculations or statistics.

I did not do schooling in this country and it was a news to me that many girls don't do STEM subjects compared to boys. Did chem/ bio/ maths/ French for A levels .
I have two daughters- same approach to parenting with both of them, same school and opportunities. Eldest was always interested and very good in sciences and Maths and is doing medicine after toying with the idea of doing science degree.
youngest gets the grade in the STEM subjects, but has never shown any enthusiasm for the subjects. But really keen on English and history and is adamant that she is dropping Maths in A levels.

As another 80s baby, IT just became a “thing” as I went through school. I took a touchtyping class which honestly was one of the more useful subjects in real life. I almost took a programming one, but changed school and it wasn’t offered at the new one (it till be interesting to see how AI changes the need to learn that one now). I went down the maths and sciences route which I just naturally fitted with. Languages were fine, but I hated English and art with a passion, even though it was forced in my school at higher level (Scottish system). I think that the “blank canvas” and having to be creative scared me back then. To each their own. We send our 3 year old to a nursery which incorporates STEM in their daily activities. It costs a fortune, but she adores it. We’ve also been seeking out STEM activities from an early age. Be it science kits, magnets, building sets etc. She will be who she will be, and we also do art even though I can barely draw a stick man, but I hope she keeps enjoying the STEM side too.

I’ll add to another point above, it is interesting that in the UK (at least in my day) your university study field had to be chosen at 16-17. I didn’t have a clue what was good for me, and I’m incredibly glad my mum stopped me doing the career I thought would be a good fit. Careers fairs were a joke, and the consultation said I should go grow plants as I liked being outdoors 🤦‍♀️. Very helpful! I like the US approach where you don’t pick your major of study until you’re there (I believe), and you get to play around a bit and find what you’re good at. I think forcing teenagers to select career paths at 16 is a major hurdle against STEM as so many don’t get to experience what it could really offer career wise.