Girls who DON’T study STEM

[Ippagoggy]

As a woman in STEM (I work as a quant for a hedge fund and I studied maths for my undergrad and computer science for my phd), I am often dragged into discussions at work about “why there aren’t there more women in our field?”

while there are a number of hypotheses put forward (I won’t bother repeating them), one thing that is generally acknowledged that the phenomenon starts early, with fewer girls taking these subjects at school (at least in the west) and this then leads to a “pipeline problem”.

I therefore would love to ask the women on here — both of their own experiences from
their school days and what they might observe of their daughters. Why have you or your daughter NOT chosen a study path or career in STEM? Was it simply that there was never any interest (and fair enough! Different people like different things)? Was there a lack of exposure in some way? Or maybe their interest in your part was but you felt discouraged from pursuing that interest for one reason or another? And what would those reasons have been?

By the way, to be clear, I am not passing any judgement on the value of STEM subjects versus non-STEM. We need both. I am just genuinely curious to understand how people are wired.

for me, when I was about 11 years old and has access to a computer that I was allowed to play with — I could not believe my eyes. This box was basically like magic and the thought that I could actually learn to make it do things was intoxicating. I became a nerd overnight.

This, really.

I have 2 dds, both of whom were fairly good all rounders (incl A (for older one) and 8 (for younger one) at GCSEs).
One of them enjoyed sciences the most and is doing her degree in a science, the other preferred other subjects so chose her A-levels and degree according to what her interests were.
Nothing more, nothing less.

love this

Both my parents are science graduates so I had the family background but didn’t continue maths or science after gcse, despite A grades. It was a combination of poor teaching at gcse which put me off chemistry, and lack of confidence in maths - I enjoyed the classes but had this constant dread that I’d get to the exams and not know what approach to take. This never happened so I don’t know where the anxiety came from really.

I also really enjoyed essay subjects.

I did a history degree but then went into finance so I did end up using maths but not to a high conceptual standard.

Maths and science were always the subjects I thought I found most challenging at school, I liked biology but found physics and chemistry boring and difficult as they were often maths based and didn’t do so well with subjects that required memorising facts/ equations and following specific rules. On the other hand I was naturally good at English, languages and subjects like history which were mainly writing/ comprehension based, I have always been pretty good at writing essays so found it easier to excel in subjects where the coursework and exams were largely essay based.

There wasn’t really much in terms of technology or engineering offered when I was at secondary school (late 90s/ early 00s), we had IT lessons but it was just things like how to use word/ excel, most of which I was already pretty competent with and so the lessons of typing data and formulas into excel spreadsheets etc just felt mind numbingly boring.

Physics was my favourite subject at school, followed by history. When it came to choosing A levels, the school timetabled them exactly together so I had to choose. The physics teacher totally ignored me at the open evening, and his only comment to my parents was "well, she does alright for a girl" and he then went back to chatting to the boys. I had just come top of the year in the mocks. But he clearly didn't want me in his class, and I figured he would be unsupportive and unhelpful if I chose to do physics so I ended up taking history instead. I still love physics now and I'm in my 50s! Never studied it again though (unless you count watching science documentaries😆) . It remains one of the biggest "what might have been" moments of my life.

I did well in science at high school in the 90's and I was attracted to study Astrophysics / Astronomy at university as I enjoyed that area a lot. I also had a lovely woman who was my biology teacher who courted me, trying to get me to do A Level Biology. In my case I was just exceptionally good at Art and Music and it was just a given that I would do an Art or Music degree. In the end I went to Art School and am now a professional artist. I have no regrets as I love my work and would do the same again. Doing STEM isn't automatically better than doing an arts subject or even Art or Music. For example my DH is an Engineer and hates his job with a passion while I love what I do and while I'd say our incomes are pretty evenly matched a good year will see me earn more than him.

I was always more into the humanities than STEM. I come from a culture which is very STEM focussed for both boys and girls, so I know my parents were disappointed I went down the humanities route, and even with their encouragement STEM simply wasn’t for me.

I just didn't 'get' STEM subjects and couldn't wait to leave them behind. My brain just doesn't work like that and never will.
While I agree that girls should continue to be exposed to STEM subjects through targeted programmes and activities and be made aware of the opportunities to try to address the inequalities in these sectors, there should also be an understanding that lots of girls (and plenty of boys) just don't enjoy STEM subjects. It's absolutely fine (but not celebrated in a STEM obsessed education system) to prefer the humanities!

I went to a smallish all-girls school and when it came to A-level only 4 of us out of about 50 wanted to do science subjects. So I don't think the lack of interest amongst girls in our school can be blamed on peer pressure at school about science being a 'boy's' subject. We 4 went to the local technical college to do our A-levels because the school couldn't spare a teacher for just 4 pupils.

In my own case I was encouraged from as young as I can remember by my father to take an interest in how things worked - he dabbled in all sorts of practical hobbies and bought the latest gadgets - but the fact that I WAS interested in what he had to say is genetic I think, though also my mother didn't discourage me by telling me my interests were unfeminine. (However I still resent her refusal to buy me a train set (saying it was a boy's toy), but looking back it could have been the cost, because I did get a chemistry set and Meccano and she didn't mind me taking old clocks and radios etc. to bits).

Science (not biology, loathed that) and maths always seemed so much easier than history, languages etc. Rather than having to memorise lots of pointless facts, dates, weird grammar etc you could memorise the rules and work out the answers. The only language I enjoyed was Latin, because it had proper rules!! I ended up with a BSc in Physics and an MSc in Astrophysics.

My daughter got physics, art and English A-levels... Her mathematical mind is like my husband's - they both excel at statistics and probability, and are both much more efficient at coding than I am. She became an accountant (and enjoyed it - I was tempted to disown her, LOL), she did a lot of spreadsheet programming to make her job easier. She implied that most accountants don't do coding.

I did an English degree for fun a few years ago, it was pretty easy. In my experience having an interest in and understanding of maths/science is genetic and less common in girls. However girls who do science have no problem with passing exams in English and other languages if they can be bothered to make a little effort. The reverse is not true - boys who are good at science are often really poor at languages (maybe because it is neglected or not encouraged for boys?). One boy I knew at college had to take his English exam (O-Level back then) 9 times as he had to have it for Uni no matter how good his science was. Many of the boys took 3 or more goes to get through English.

My degrees are in English Lit and Psychology.

Looking back I think it was multiple things. I think I would have loved physics but the tasters were so dull and at such an early point, I picked chemistry instead. By my 4th year of high school, my (male) teacher thought I was a flirt and was very negative about me needing chemistry for anything. I also internalised the idea that I was bad at maths or anything STEM based from my mother so I was the only student in my cohort at school not to do maths beyond standard grade (16). Instead I went language and humanities heavy. With the benefit of hindsight and attempting an OU maths course at random as an adult, I realised that actually I can do it (got a distinction), I just lacked confidence and support.

Of my own children, dd (5) has far more interest age for age in STEM especially in programming than ds did, partly because she loves minecraft. People's reactions say a lot though. Dh and I both like chess, it's essentially how we got together. No one raised an eyebrow at then 5 year old ds learning how to play but lots of people have expressed surprise and discomfort that we've taught dd. I think that underlying attitude manifests in many ways and it starts young.

Both my DD & I hate STEM subjects. For me, I think it's because for maths & science in particular, it's too logical for my brain to process. Most of the time my head is in the clouds, and everything is open-ended, iyswim. My daughter is very creative and arty, and starts a photography project, for example, with an open-ended mindset. You can't say to either of us: ok, I want something like this and I want it built within this time frame and it's got to work in a user friendly way...we're more, let's go out and find pretty things and people and nature and colour that inspires. I'm also really crap at problem solving.

I did try nursing at a young age but I quickly found out I was crap at it. I couldn't work out medication to safe anyone's life. I hated the enclosed nature of the job. I have been utterly reverential to all nurses since they kicked me out of nursing school.

I'm now a tube station supervisor but I leave the STEM aspect of light rail to the men and women who are trained to do it. Apart from responding to emergencies, I stay away from the track and trains.

Wasn't interested, which is just as well because dyscalculia tends to mess up your grades in science and maths subjects.

As an artsy "millennian" parent of a 5 year old, how do you handle Minecraft? My DC has mentioned it from seeing peers at childcare, but how do I facilitate this curiosity in a healthy age appropriate way?

I was somewhat pushed into STEM for A levels as the conscientious 'clever' girl all rounder. Relatively, my weakest subject was always maths at school, but I managed to get my A level grade.

I find the academic medical side endlessly fascinating, but is tiring and stressful as a career.

My dd excelled at maths at primary school (interestingly was the only girl to sit a higher SATs in year 6 alongside 5 boys).

I wanted her to choose her own A levels/degree. But my own bias I (mistakenly) discouraged A level maths -because of worries she could get a top grade as she just missed her Grade 9 at GCSE.

Despite this she still chose a BSc finance/accounting degree which still had a large maths component and proved she was capable (2:1 Russell Group).
However she is struggling with the reality of competitive entry career path in the corporate world.

I'm not therefore convinced that STEM guarantees everyone a great career.

OP read Inferior by Angela Saini. It’s an excellent book and looks at the complexity of the issue of girls and STEM.

It’s not so much the number of girls studying STEM at school age which limits representation, but more the number of women who then go on to jobs in STEM post - qualification due to long standing societal factors which mean that many areas of STEM are still challenging to work in as a woman. Sexism is very prevalent.

As an artsy "millennian" parent of a 5 year old, how do you handle Minecraft? My DC has mentioned it from seeing peers at childcare, but how do I facilitate this curiosity in a healthy age appropriate way?

She plays alone on creative or with her brother/friends cooperatively on creative. We have an xbox and multiple controllers so usually they play split screen. So no other people, basically a big virtual sandbox where she can build to her hearts desire. She also loves lego, kapla and wooden blocks so at the moment building is her thing. We have strictly enforced time limits and even though we have multiple tablets as a household, no devices in bedrooms. She spent an hour the other night building minecraft versions of the Titanic with ds, complete with 3 smoking funnels, 1 not, a ship's cat and staterooms.

I did well at maths, science and art at school. I was encouraged to follow the art route, maybe because it seemed like a talent? Where as maths/science did not. I gave up on the art to become an accountant as it seemed sensible and I did enjoy a lot of the study and work. I have since changed to a science based career as a gardener/horticulturalist. I love the plant science and there is so much to learn that I know I will still be studying when I get to retirement, if I ever decide to retire. My job allows me to experiment a lot, growing from seed, taking cuttings and creating planting designs so I get a bit of art in too. I also get to operate some fun machinery too.
I didn't really see or feel any barriers to going into STEM subjects. They were more male dominated but I've never really felt like I've fit in so I guess I didn't question the fact that I wasn't the same as everyone else.
I also love psychology and neuroscience, I listen to endless podcasts on the subjects, so I'd like to study that too if I got a chance to start over. My science and maths teachers at school were quite boring so my passion for these subjects has only developed as I stumbled onto them in later life.

I think it’s specific areas of stem where women are under represented, particularly physics! Plenty of females study chemistry and biology and obviously subjects like medicine are female dominated now

Thank you! It's all happening so fast, I need to get a real handle on it before I let her play. Really, thank you.

@Lizlibrarian I’m not too clued up on classes, but here are a few suggestions:

• kiwico tinker crate (subscription boxes that she can build each month). They are a little on the pricey side as this is US based but I love them for my kids and they are really well-made. There might be similar box sets in the UK?
• if she is mature enough and likes the idea of self-study then the book Make : Electronics by Charles Platt is insanely good. You will have to commit to buying a few bits and pieces (leds, resistors, transistors etc all easily found on Amazon and not expensive) but she will have a whale of a time learning how things work, burning stuff up (in a controlled way), etc.
• if she has access to a computer, you could gift her this course for Christmas or birthday https://studio.com/mark-rober-engineering mark rober is a nasa engineer turned super influential YouTuber who is really inspirational. And no, she’s not too young for it.

Because it's harder and a B in Physics doesn't look as good as an A* in Drama in the published school league tables. DD went to an all girls selective private secondary school after excelling at a state primary, particularly in Maths.
Once it came to A level options the school encouraged her and many of her friends to take non STEM subjects because they would probably get a higher grade in History or English Lit, for example, rather than Chemistry or Physics.
Out of 127 girls in her year only 7 took Physics A Level but 64 got an A* or A in Psychology. This obviously looks better on the league tables and encourages parents to go down that line.
My daughter left after GCSE's and went to a state 6th form to do A level Maths, Physics and Chemistry with mostly boys but it was a better mix and is now studying for a master's in chemical engineering.
That's one reason, the ridiculously low money that STEM degree jobs pay in this county is another.
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So the way they're taught?

I've no doubt this is irrelevant but I remember having my hair set on fire in chemistry class at GCSE, but I wasn't scared during English class.

i'm a diploma nurse that eventually upgraded to a bs in nursing. biology is fine my achilles is math, honestly my math skills are very very basic.
i certainly could not help my kids with their math homework and the math teachers where i'm from do not themselves have math specialty.

I often talk to the girls I teach about how they feel about STEM subjects vs the arts and one theme that always comes up is that they don’t like the fact that in the sciences you can be wrong. The arts are more about debate and viewpoint and so on and there’s much less emphasis on being right or wrong. It may be something to do with girls who generally lack confidence being more hesitant to do subjects where you might get an answer wrong vs one where you can discuss and debate and it’s all a bit more nebulous.

(That said I am not exactly overloaded with confidence and the fact that you are either right or wrong is one of the things I like about the STEM subjects: I find it kind of reassuring that there is a “correct” answer, rather than a viewpoint that I may or may not have thought through or researched enough.)