Girls who DON’T study STEM

[Ippagoggy]

As a woman in STEM (I work as a quant for a hedge fund and I studied maths for my undergrad and computer science for my phd), I am often dragged into discussions at work about “why there aren’t there more women in our field?”

while there are a number of hypotheses put forward (I won’t bother repeating them), one thing that is generally acknowledged that the phenomenon starts early, with fewer girls taking these subjects at school (at least in the west) and this then leads to a “pipeline problem”.

I therefore would love to ask the women on here — both of their own experiences from
their school days and what they might observe of their daughters. Why have you or your daughter NOT chosen a study path or career in STEM? Was it simply that there was never any interest (and fair enough! Different people like different things)? Was there a lack of exposure in some way? Or maybe their interest in your part was but you felt discouraged from pursuing that interest for one reason or another? And what would those reasons have been?

By the way, to be clear, I am not passing any judgement on the value of STEM subjects versus non-STEM. We need both. I am just genuinely curious to understand how people are wired.

for me, when I was about 11 years old and has access to a computer that I was allowed to play with — I could not believe my eyes. This box was basically like magic and the thought that I could actually learn to make it do things was intoxicating. I became a nerd overnight.

I did a STEM degree and then went into teaching. I'd have been interested in a PhD but didn't really know how they worked. I wasn't fully aware of what the stem jobs were and was also never that good at practicals. Also there was a bursary to do a pgce.

This is such an interesting question to pose, OP! I did very well in all subjects at GCSE and STEM subject teachers tried to persuade me to carry them on at A Level. But, honestly, I was fired up by English and History. I could do STEM subjects, but I didn't get them, if that makes sense? Arts subjects just chimed with me. So I studied Eng Lit to MA level...but then I've retrained...and got a BSc...!

Oh I hated practicals, I'm far too clumsy and anxious. I much preferred theories then.

Not sure what you mean about fewer girls taking the subjects because even back when I was at school in the early 90s STEM subjects were compulsory for gcses. We had to do them. 30+ years on they are still compulsory.
Personally I would have preferred more creative subjects. Some people (both female and male) just don’t find STEM subjects interesting.
I have to say working as “a quant for a hedge fund” means absolutely nothing to me - I have no idea what that is.

Because I just found it all boring to be honest and much preferred subjects like English and History. I did separate sciences for GCSE but it was a constant struggle (wasn’t put off by the boys in the class) and dropped technology as I couldn’t give a toss about building materials or electronics.
I went on and did Law and am now a charity manager.

Also a woman in stem here (sorry!) so I can’t comment on your original question
But one thing I think is relevant is that STEM has been elevated as aspirational, and we applaud girls who choose traditionally male dominated subjects
I wish we did the same for boys. I want to see the same push to get more boys studying languages, English, etc

I genuinely think this is the only way (short term) to address gender pay gap. Rather than continue to promote only increased female representation, let’s promote male representation. I bet if more men did nursing, interpreting, social law etc then value/wages would increase

but I digress….

most of my female friends who started in stem moved to education, it was more stable income 🤷🏻‍♀️

Like others I was good enough at the subjects at gcse level but didn’t enjoy them - I went in to do English, French, Spanish & Italian A levels. I loved languages & reading - maths & science was just stuff I had to learn.
My Dd hates reading, dreadful at languages but is very creative & was never going to go down a maths route

@Littlepinkstarsbyradish interesting. Would more men in arts careers increase wages therein?

Having leaned towards languages at school I went and did computer science at college and had a career in IT, programming then operations before moving into a different field around 10 years later.

My eldest child is an English grad, no interest in STEM at all but my middle daughter is en engineer and my youngest is going into a science subject at uni.

We tend to be a STEM family, it's what we "get" - so it's a natural progression I guess

DD was all set for STEM then COVID... Trying to bring STEM to life virtually for a y9 cohort was clearly beyond her school's staff and she became increasingly disillusioned, to the point of losing all interest, bombing her (previously loved) physics exam and choosing all arts for A level.

No interest

I'm to too thick.

I think so

I think female dominated fields are undervalued, and more men would mean they were taken more seriously

depressing, but I think true :(

I did study stem, but when I took physics as an A level I was told by the head of science that the physics teacher didn't like girls in his class and it would be better if I just did biology (which I was also taking). The physics teacher refused to help me for the whole two years and it was accepted as just the way it was (mid 2000s)

My primary teacher at school also prioritised computer time for the boys and whenever a girl didn't pick something up quickly enough in using a computer he would ridicule them in front of the whole class. It wasn't until I had amazing IT teacher at secondary school I realised I was actually any good at IT (I now work in IT) but he, the secondary teacher, was amazing with all his class and got several of us into the subject

So for me it was very much focused around shit teachers vs amazing teachers.

I've heard men in IT complain about there being more women in IT nowadays because they worry it means the wages will drop

They haven't quite twigged yet they are complaining about the wrong problem

I was good at science and did Maths A Level, but found it nowhere near as interesting as my other subjects (History and English). I work in Finance now and have done for years and that’s good to work in but isn’t something I would ever have chosen to study at university, it just isn’t that interesting. The likes of engineering, computer stuff - it’s just not as interesting as something like History. If girls are being discouraged from studying or working in STEM then that’s obviously terrible and needs to be addressed but I really hate the current narrative that STEM is all that’s worthwhile or is the only thing clever students should be aiming for.

I loved science at school but struggled with maths and my year was the first "allowed" to do physics at O'level this was in the 70s I worked in healthcare straight from school having done badly in exams. But aged 47 went to university via the extended degree route and aged 52 graduated with a good 2:1(and a diagnosis of dyscalculia and dyslexia) in applied human biochemistry followed by an MSc the next year. I worked back in healthcare in health education throughout the pandemic and now do medical advocacy. 2 DC graduates in STEM one in the arts

By the time I got to A-levels and University it was a complete lack of any interest in any of the Stem subjects. I did psychology (which is a BSc), but with the full intention of going into a caring career afterwards, which I've done and generally love my job.

Looking further back to secondary school I always hated physics and technology, not a huge interest in chemistry, didn't mind biology and quite liked maths. I was success/praise driven though and definitely received better feedback from the humanities and English. I don't know if this is because I was actually better at those subjects or just had more enthusiastic teachers. I was an A/A* student across the board. I do think I could have gone further with maths with a little bit more encouragement though. If there had been the dialogue around girls in stem subjects then I think I'd have tried harder/stuck with maths just to make a point!

Looking even further back I can't tell what prompted my interest in English/Humanities/a caring career and my disinterest in STEM. My parents never encouraged me to pursue stem subjects, but always bought me what I asked for for Christmas etc. so I was in possession of Lego, a chemistry set, a microscope, other engineering toys etc. Ultimately they got ignored in favour of dolls, Barbie's, creative games and drawing/writing. I think maybe I was just never cut out for a STEM career. I have a job that doesn't involve sitting at a desk, looking at a screen or going to meetings and I thank my lucky stars for that every day!

Always fun when men almost understand the problem 😂

I took languages - I was always fascinated and still am by how we speak, what connections there are between different languages, how you can say one thing in German that expresses a view that cannot really be said in English. Was lucky enough to have the chance to take multiple languages at school (4 at 16 and 3 at 18 plus an extra one). Just was more interested in the subject.

DD took Eng lit and always was going to - loves reading and analysis of who and why and what this word right here means.

I did A level Maths.

My school said I couldn’t because the timetable didn’t work with my other arts subjects.

So I went to a second school to do Maths.

They expected me to opt not do it because of their admin issues. I suspect there would have been other girls forced to choose arts or science subjects. 😡

Well, apart from having a crap science teacher at school and he being bounced up and fine sets in maths as they couldn’t agree on my ability, I couldn’t get the guidance or support for the subjects in the first place. Anyway, I’m still bitter they didn’t let me do French at GCSE level as an option, I was really good at it as had another language. Sorry, I’m still seething after all these years, didn’t help that my parents weren’t bothered either 😏

For DD it is simply that she doesn't enjoy STEM subjects as much as say English, History, Art or Geography.

This is compounded by her peers feeling the same way. Whilst no girl should be discouraged from STEM subjects equally no girl should have STEM subjects forced upon them (aside from what is already obligatory).

I absolutely loved English language and literature and hated the smell of the chemistry lab

I did the mandatory STEM subjects in school but never carried them on into higher education. The only reason for that was because the arts and humanities were/are what lights my soul. I was given the opportunity and was taken under the wing of a great science teacher.

My brother studied STEM subjects in higher education and my dad works in the field. Thinking about it non of the women in my family work in STEM. There was never any discussion either way and never any clear reason why as far as I could tell. One thing I can think of is who spends the most time with who in families generally speaking. My dad spent more time with my brother and I with my mother who is an artist. I take after her and my brother after my father. It's chicken and egg though, was it because we naturally had similar interests or did those interests develop through that time spent, I don't know.

You have made me think op. My eldest has shown a keen interest in science and engineering all her life. As a tiny girl she spent most of her time making moving machines (cars, sweet dispensers, grabbers etc) out of cardboard and asked for bulbs and batteries for her birthday. She is 10 now and has moved on to art and focuses her attention on that. She's a talented artist. She enjoys music and plays instruments. But she will won't she because I'm her main carer and spend the most time with her. It's not intentional but we can connect on something we both enjoy. Your op really made me see that actually and I'm going to make an effort to explore her interest in physics and engineering more. DH is an engineer ffs.

Op is there anything you would recommend that could help. I think there used to be a magazine subscription for dc that was STEM related. I don't think extra curricular classes in such subjects are as common or available as say dance lessons. I wonder why that is? This could also be part of the answer to your op, are people who work in or are passionate about STEM likely to create clubs to get more dc into these areas. Is it that more women than men run extra curricular classes and clubs and as there are more women in non STEM subjects we see more non STEM classes? I can't recall a STEM type club in my area or school and especially not one run by women. Shame really. I bet my dd in particular would do well with a female role model like that.