Girls who DON’T study STEM

[Ippagoggy]

As a woman in STEM (I work as a quant for a hedge fund and I studied maths for my undergrad and computer science for my phd), I am often dragged into discussions at work about “why there aren’t there more women in our field?”

while there are a number of hypotheses put forward (I won’t bother repeating them), one thing that is generally acknowledged that the phenomenon starts early, with fewer girls taking these subjects at school (at least in the west) and this then leads to a “pipeline problem”.

I therefore would love to ask the women on here — both of their own experiences from
their school days and what they might observe of their daughters. Why have you or your daughter NOT chosen a study path or career in STEM? Was it simply that there was never any interest (and fair enough! Different people like different things)? Was there a lack of exposure in some way? Or maybe their interest in your part was but you felt discouraged from pursuing that interest for one reason or another? And what would those reasons have been?

By the way, to be clear, I am not passing any judgement on the value of STEM subjects versus non-STEM. We need both. I am just genuinely curious to understand how people are wired.

for me, when I was about 11 years old and has access to a computer that I was allowed to play with — I could not believe my eyes. This box was basically like magic and the thought that I could actually learn to make it do things was intoxicating. I became a nerd overnight.

@LauraAshleyDuvetCover absolutely. I'm not sure what the solution is, but I was in exactly the same position. There is a window in academic science where you basically make yourself unemployed if you have a baby. That's before you might want to spend more than 6.months looking after it, occasionally do a school run or buy a house where your other half can also work!

I loved languages and was lucky enough to be able to do four languages for ‘O’ level and three for ‘A’ level and I have used them every day of my life.

Just having a bit of a laugh to myself this morning in the shower. We all know and are aware of the socialisation aspect of boys v girls, its nothing new. If you really think about it as I was due to this thread it's actually quite cringe inducing. Dhs 'man' products are all "this chemical, this science for your skin, pictures of science items on bottles". My 'women' products are all "natural sea crystals and herbs and flowers and shiny things" urrrghhh it's ridiculous.

I was a "good all-rounder" at an all girls' school.

I enjoyed most subjects, but probably did find it easier to learn facts than write essays. In the end I decided I could always do night classes for languages (although I did do one at A-level), and I took music lessons and theory outside school so could keep doing some.

So I did STEM because (a) I liked it, (b) was good at it (c) didn't think I could access it outside of school/university (d) enjoyed practicals.

See also all the “science for girls” sets: perfume making, soap making, bath bombs etc. Not, of course, that there’s anything to stop you giving one to a boy, or giving a girl one of the gender-neutral ones, but it’s patronising to assume that we need to make science “pretty” to get girls into it.

(I do realise the irony of saying this having just said how much I love copper sulphate because it’s a pretty colour…)

I have a Masters in Chemistry and I was inspired both by really good Physics & Chemistry teachers who bent over backwards to encourage our interest in the subject. I still remember the day my Physics teacher blew my mind by pointing out that as electrons repel each other, nothing can ever touch anything else (except possibly in large hadron colliders... he then arranged a trip to CERN & drive us there himself to show us a collider!).

Biology was dull at school (here, study this earthworm 🙈) but I did a 2 years of molecular cell biology at Uni and that was far more fascinating. Things that caught my imagination included "given that every cell in your body contains your whole DNA, why do your skin cells not produce eyeball cells" and "how come humans have a head & foot, front & back & left & right when they start out from a spherical egg?" If they had taught things like that at school I'd have signed up to biology on the spot!

My family helped by taking out a subscription to the New Scientist for me & encouraging me to watch the Royal Institution Christmas Lectures every year.

So my take on this is that the science curriculum may not be optimised for interest & that some teachers are better at making science interesting & fun than others. I was very lucky to have the teachers that I got. Family interest helps too.

I did GCSEs in the early 90s. At my comp there were prestigious STEM subjects reserved for boys. At least one that I remember, anyway: it was called Technology and I think it involved rudimentary computer programming. A couple of extremely bright girls did get onto the course because their parents kicked up a stink. So realistically, you needed those sort of sharp-elbowed parents who also were aware of what was going on: one was a teacher at the school, for example.

The standard, non gender specific STEM option was double science. Thickos (I was one, or dyscalculic at any rate) got to choose single science instead, by means of a ruse involving a timetabling clash with RE!

At an all girls sixth form, it was totally different. All the A students had been made to choose STEM A levels, unless they were doing German, which was prestigious. I was the only straight A student in my English and Class Civ classes, both of which funtioned as a de facto crèche for the academically challenged (God knows how they got through the 12 plus).

I'm sure it's better now, but I think the disparity between the two schools makes the case for single sex education. You can't reserve the fanciest subjects for boys when there aren't any!

the science curriculum may not be optimised for interest

Ain’t that the truth!! The best discussions I have in lessons are the ones where someone asks a question and I have time to go off on a bit of a tangent about it. Science can be so amazing but a lot of the stuff you actually need to know for the exam is dull even to me.

I haven't read the whole thread, but my rather controversial answer is to have segregated by sex schools. The girls schools (yes, private) that my two attended both had very high STEM participation, more so than humanities. Lots of maths, further maths, physics, DT and engineering. They also took part in engineering scholarships etc etc.

Strongly agree with this. I'd also say I didn't find my teaching at school very inspiring. I'd love to see more focus in the curriculum about real-world applications of subject, recent discoveries/developments and more cross curricular stuff. I suspect this might have helped me find an area of science that I found interesting and wanted to pursue - probably genetics. But at GCSE level it was such a dry theoretical topic.

How did you realise you weren't bad at maths, if you don't mind me asking? I have DDs still at school, and not understanding any maths is a huge inconvenience for them. DD1 actually did make some progress thanks from some help from a Russian classmate, and said that Russian methods make more sense to her than French ones. I don't know whether that's true, or whether her friend just has a knack for explaining things.

Like another poster, I could do them (I did do A-level Maths) but I didn't want to because I found the Humanities more interesting.

I don't like being told to do and in the 80s we were subject to a fair bit of "Girls! Study STEM!" propaganda much of which involved macho looking things like the Army and engineering.

The Chemistry and Physics teachers at my all girls' school were guys, with poor social skills. I liked the Humanities teachers more (and both my Maths teachers were female).

I didn't have any role models of what I could do with a STEM degree and my parents weren't well informed (although I would have ignored them anyway!)

So the increasing number of role models is good.

I’ve never really “got” mathematics and sciences, I’ve always struggled with the logic of the concepts really because I don’t think they were ever taught to me in a relatable way. STEM subjects just turn me off as I lack confidence. I realised recently that because I wasn’t taught mathematics in easy to understand and relatable terms then I lack confidence in my abilities. I had to take a very simple maths test a few weeks ago and immediately was sure I would fail it, as even though I knew the calculation methods, I wasn’t confident in implementing them. Even just a few days ago DH showed me a really simple method for working out percentages that I don’t remember EVER being shown before, and I’m 35 ffs.

However, I am fairly good at languages. As an adult I’ve come to notice and realise that coding and certain computing skills are like learning a language or pattern. I do now wonder if these had been presented to me in that way when I was a child or teen whether I would have pursued it as a career. I had a go at coding recently and thought it was ok and if I’d the patience for learning it I’d probably take it further.

Another factor massively is that as a girl, I wasn’t ever shown that it was ok for women to go into STEM subjects, which is ironic as I went to a secondary school that was supposed to be a “specialist engineering college”. We had to take at least one “tech” or science subject all the way through to GCSE. “Food technology” was the one I and most of the other girls chose, along with “fabrics technology”, so essentially cooking and making clothes. Ridiculous really, not anything STEM related is it?

One of my parents and their siblings were scientists, so probably inevitable that one member of our family continued suit, it wasn't what I was best at, but it was what I was interested in. I have always tried to encourage my DC to think about how things work and what is going on in simplistic terms from an early age to show them that everything around us has some relationship to science in some way, no matter what you are interested in.

Can you also be a doctor who dances and does more than your fair share of childcare and housework, though? Or is the dancing likely to fall by the wayside at that point. (Dancing might be an extreme example, as I can't imagine it's easier being a pro dancer and a mother, but hopefully you take my point!)

The fabrics and home economics absolutely contain science, but I suspect it got lost in translation.

The arts are more about debate and viewpoint and so on and there’s much less emphasis on being right or wrong.

I find the idea that you’re either right or wrong reassuring. I always loved English, but I didn’t like the way a poet may have meant

It was the analysis of language and ideas and intentions that drew me to literature. I liked the idea of no right answer

And this is what DD hated about English literature. If you can put forward a good argument you can bullshit your way through an exam because it is so subjective.

and the fact that you are either right or wrong is one of the things I like about the STEM subjects:

And that is why DD liked STEM subjects and achieved A* in all of them at GCSE and As at A level. She just cannot bullshit her way out of anything. She likes the logic of STEM subjects.

one I and most of the other girls chose, along with “fabrics technology”, so essentially cooking and making clothes

I taught Textiles for 25 years at GCSE and A level. It is considered a STEM subject due to the high science content.

At A level it was all science. The papers were very hard, full of biology ( fibre structure) chemistry ( dyes) physics ( fibre properties. Smart and technical material are all science, including nanofobres and finishes.

How can they be “low numbers”?

64% of all Biology students and 54% of all Chemistry students at A level is “low numbers”, is it?

Dominating numerous STEM degree courses like Medicine, Dentistry, Vet Med, Biology, Biochemistry, Pharmacology, Zoology, etc. is “low numbers”, is it?

The gender pay gap is not going to be resolved by promoting girls to study STEM. Do you know why? BECAUSE THEY ALREADY DO.

So the campaigns are a complete waste of time and money.

They are STEM related.

I work in technology with people, both men and women, with creative backgrounds. They are the people who ensure the front end of applications/websites and reports look good and useable. They do jobs like UX/UI designers and content design. They learn what they need to about technologies we are working with on the job.

There are lots of creative jobs that are involved in STEM like food technology, textiles/fabrics technology and industrial design that people, especially teenagers, aren't shown have that relationship.

For example if you have ever been on the London underground, any train or bus the seat fabric design is creative but the actual fabric used involves STEM.

It is the technology, engineering and Mathematics part of STEM that they want women to do more in.

However engineers in the UK are treated poorly and most I know/met who stayed working as engineers regards of sex went to work abroad as they earned more money.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow I did “Textiles” for GCSE and it was all embroidery, rug making, sewing cushions and making tote bags - I don’t remember much “STEM” coming into it. Although I suppose we did have to make the correct choice on fabrics, materials etc.
I actually dropped the subject after a year because I didn’t really know what I was doing. It was kind of expected you already knew the skills needed - where I assumed we would be taught them 🤔

I do think sometimes students think they can bullshit their way through English, but they're not usually the ones who get the high grades.

I never actually understand what “engineers” do in their job. What does it mean “to be an engineer”. I see a lot of the attempts to encourage girls into engineering - but they never really say what the job actually is.

I don’t recognise that course.

You will have had an exam on properties or something like that. I can link to papers if you don’t believe.

All D and T is STEM, textijes, graphics, rm or whatever. It all includes maths and science. Obviously your one years knowledge about it is greater than my 25 years🤨