STEINER WALDORF SCHOOLS AND INSTITUTIONS

[theantignome]

hi everyone, i wanted to start a new thread with a NEW topic heading here, as the active one at the moment with over 700 posts looks like it is all about the Cambridge school. This may confuse newcomers.

Let's continue the debate here !
All newcomers welcome !

I will shortly link our two previous threads on MN for any one new to have a look at.

Davy, could you also give a link to your new yahoo list here please ? Thanks.

Sune here you go....

?A good education is about more than academics ? it?s also about learning values and principles,?says Ken Chenault, Chairman and CEO of American Express Company....

www.teacherscount.org/campaign/chenault-lecraw.shtml

Seems like Jannis principles flew out of the window when she accepted her gifts from the Steiner parents yesterday. A rather large HYPOCRITE springs to mind!

Tell me Janni, did it feel good to accept those gifts from the people that you had spent 6 years with? Did you feel like they were being geniune when they handed them to you? And if not did you tell them so? Did you tell them what you really thought of Steiner and the parents and the school in general? Did you tell them that you believe Steiner parents can't spell? Did you tell them that you are an active keyboard warrior on this forum and an active anti Steinerite? Or did you do as I suspect and accept the gifts, kept your gob shut and sloped off? Shame that they didn't know what your real agenda was - Hypocrite!

I've accepted gifts from friends whose views I don't share, and who don't share my views. What's the problem? You could still be friends, couldn't you?

In addition, don't pretend it's such an easy thing to sever your bonds with a cult - when your friends and family is still in it. I have never had to do that (I never had any bonds with waldorf - there was nobody there I wanted to be in contact with), but I feel for Janni's situation, and I don't think it's right to call her a hypocrite.

And, I'm sorry, Steiner/waldorf kids and teachers can't spell. And I suspect one of the reasons the parents don't realize their kids can't spell is because the parents can't spell either.

Zzooey- Would you suggest the definition of Hypocrite is not fitting?

"hypocrisy
when someone pretends to believe something that they do not really believe or that is the opposite of what they do or say at another time:"- source- Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary

enlighten us all with your wisdom...I'm only trying to help...

(stick with me ZZooey- you might learn summit!)

...leave that one with you- love and light

Yes, sure, that's a description that fits the anthroposophists perfectly.

However, I don't really think it's hypocrisy to simply refrain from telling your friends they are wrong, or to keep being friends despite not sharing their views. I think that most of the time, in real life, you've got to accept they think about things differently, and to not ruin friendship you might refrain from trying to hammer your views onto them, and perhaps sometimes you would tread lightly in announcing your views, maybe actually taking it little at a time. It doesn't mean that you're neccessarily pretend to believe in something - you simply don't tell people right away you don't believe in something.

If that's hypocrisy - then it's really hypocrisy light.

Perhaps by going about it slowly - and not announce every aspect of your thoughts like a missionary - you can stay friends with your friends instead of alienating them? Isn't it worth it then? Because it's really just a delay of the "complete truth"

And there are really additional problems when someone is leaving anthroposophy/waldorf and still has children in school or the children have friends within the movement. Because anthroposophy isn't a movement you can critisize openly while staying in it, or expect to remain in positive contact with if you leave. To say what you feel about it, while leaving a child in a waldorf class - that's very often cruel to the child. So actually not actively informing the waldorfians you don't agree with them is sometimes just a pragmatic solution to a very real problem. If you think that's hypocrisy - well, again, hypocrisy light. Hypocrisy for survival. I don't know, but to me that isn't exactly something to scorn people for, people who've invested a lot in the anthro movement.

Wow - Phoenix. Where do I start with that?

There was a big bunch of flowers for me. I have worked hard at the school over the years, so they were a thank you for that. I don't think it would have been right to have handed them back during the festival, in front of all the children.

The food was a goodbye meal for my son, from his teacher and classmates. Again, should I have made a scene in front of them all?

I did not receive gifts and I gave a book to my son's teacher as a gift. I have always said, on here and in RL that she is a generous, committed teacher. It's true she can't spell - and, yes, I have gently pointed one or two of her spelling mistakes out to her.

I HAVE raised concerns about certain practices to the teachers at the school, I was very clear about why I removed DS2 at the end of last year. His class was chaotic. That was BEFORE I learned all the stuff about anthroposophy, courtesy of my friends here on mumsnet.

Actually, no, none of it feels good. None of it. I get no pleasure in having made, what I consider to be a big mistake in the education of my children.

You think I'm a hypocrite. OK, yes, it does hurt to be called that, you've got your point across.

I hope Steiner education is working out for your family.

Forgive me for drawing you back to what has happened but as the facts clearly show we have a series of chronological events.

1.Janni's children go to the Steiner School and are educated and nurtured.
2.Doubts grow about the Steiner Schooling system- so Janni removes 1 child- leaving the other child.
3.A loathing of the system begins- clearly documented over a period of time here. 4.Still the other child remains in the education.
5.Finally,second child is removed.
6.Parents and possibly teachers (the Steiner community) offer presents and seem genuinely sad that the family are leaving- all seemingly unaware of the hatred and loathing that has been built up and vented, being inspired by fellow haters. Janni is fired up and ready to go.
7.Yet when all children are removed and into the safe bosom of their family once again- instead of voicing her opinion she chooses to accept these gifts and lamentations and you know what she does....?

1. Nothing- except tap, tap, tap away in the faceless ethernet, that we all know to be mumsnet.

8.Hypocrisy breeding hypocrisy...

What type of message is being sent to these poor children, as they gather around the Janni dinner table to discuss the days events?

I struggle to see any good coming from this poor show of resolve.

I award you the Hypocrisy badge- wear it and ponder upon your choices and what message this has sent to your children, both in this life and the next.

"What we do in life, echoes in eternity." Gladiator circa 2000.

... I may well share this with my children tonight as they prepare for bed, I will title it- "Have the Courage of your Convictions!"

Hypocrisy- pure and simple- here's the definition for those in any doubt

"hypocrisy
when someone pretends to believe something that they do not really believe or that is the opposite of what they do or say at another time:"- source- Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary

leave that with you...

PS - that was a really cruel thing to say to Janni. With a child still at the school, I think she did the very best she could. I think when we realise we have been duped by this movement, FEAR not hypocrisy drives us to leave the safest quickest way we can.

Its rather like a bereavement, the fear, turns to sadness, confusion, questions, answers, anger then hopefully letting go. The net is the only place I can vent my frustration at what happened to our family. I still live in a steiner community and I know things would get a lot worse if I tried to 'share with the group' my feelings on their belief system.

I was quietly terrified while I was leaving due to the slow realisation I had been involved with a cult. The disturbing violent behaviour of the children (and the parents for ignoring it). I knew there was no way I could reason with them. They really believe they are right and with the 'herd mentality' it's amazing what is deemed as unaccepatable in civilized society becomes known as creative/dynamic/spirited/indigo behaviour in theirs.

Janni accepting gifts from the parents is all it is. There is nothing sinister or hypocritical about it.

I hope Janni and her family will be able to look forward to reclaiming their lives back and begin a new chapter. You can still take the good bits and leave behind the mad. I hope the school will prove to be different and not ignore her when she next bumps into one of the parents.

Surely a community should not be in isolation - conditional on what school you send your children to? Otherwise it's a cult.

My children still need to trust the I can make good decisions on their behalf. I have NOT shared ANY of this with them.

DS2 understands why he was withdrawn from Steiner and although he was VERY unhappy about it at the time, he is settled in his new school and says it is better organised and they learn more.

The decision for DS1 to leave came from him. I probably do not understand all the reasons and I was surprised. We supported him in that and helped him get into a secondary school. My discovering these threads happened after we had announced to the school that DS1 was leaving.

I think it would be really really wrong of me to badmouth their school to them. It would undermine their trust in me and it would tarnish their friendships and experiences. I have always said that KG was a happy time for both of them and that DS1 has had a committed, pretty good teacher.

These attacks on me are really personal. I have opened up here about stuff that's really really painful for me. I'm sorry you feel the need to attack me for that.

Pheonixshytes - The more I read your posts, the more I think you are not trying to convince Janni, me, Northern etc,
You are trying to convince yourself.

Janni- your school end of term festival sounds familar- have you never been to one of your schools festivals before-when children leave- their time at the school is celebrated- you did not expect that?

I put it to you Janni- you went there, wrapped up in your hatred- perhaps even wearing your key board warrior underpants- ready to "virtually" give them a piece of your mind and right the many wrongs you seem to have been laterly educated in.

I put it to you that the warped perception you had of Steiner, backed up here- was not full of cult figures, but instead caring loving friends- a community that welcomed you and accepted you ...

Yet you chose to turn on them..not face to face, but in the darkness of the internet.

How very brave...you knew what the festival might bring and you came with Judas style outstretched, grabbing, dirty hands.

I think you should consider your position very carefully- I see you as a hypocrite- and scoff at your weak attempts to explain your strange behaviour.

Reflect Janni reflect- I hope you are sorry for your hypocritical ways.

I think what "phoenix," excuse me "pheonix" is saying is stupid, and vicious. No way does Janni deserve to be attacked this way.

Janni - please please ignore her.

I was going to report this for what she has just said, but I feel her words will be the very best advertisment for the 'steiner community'. A memorial if you like.

I couldn't do better myself.

"Lets She who is without sin cast the first stone"- Well Janni- I noticed that you hurled rather a large rock towards my "spelling"- a personal attack don't you think?

• I chose not to opt for the childish/easy option of highlighting your pastspelling mistakes- instead reading and attempting to undertand your behaviour in what must have been an emotionally charged time- not least of all for your children.

• reflect Judas reflect- and enjoy your Easter eggs Courage cannot be bought at Netto- it is nurtured- get planting!

I am not consumed with hatred, I am consumed with sadness and with anger at myself for making a poor choice for my children and for myself.

I repeat, the end of term festival was a chance for the school and his class to say goodbye to my son. I did not know they would give me flowers and I really don't see what I could have done other than accept them. I had my daughter in my arms, my other two children were there - it would have been very odd of me to do otherwise, surely?

Phoenix - I have laid out in detail on this thread the experience we had with DS2's class one. Every word of that is true. I challenge ANYONE to tell me we made the wrong decision to remove him from that environment.

As far as I can recall you have not shared any personal testimony about why you are so committed to the Steiner School which your child(ren) attend. If you want to counteract my anti-Steiner warnings to other parents who might be reading this thread, it would do you far more good than making these vicious attacks on my character.

Not to mention completely wrong. Janni did exactly the right thing, to leave graciously and not have angry scenes in front of the children. To have refused something like flowers at a good-bye party would be very childish and set a bad example for her children. It makes me angry your behalf, Janni, that Pheonix/lush is attacking you.

I am sorry if I hurt your feelings with my flippant observation that 'Steiner people can't spell'.

"I repeat, the end of term festival was a chance for the school and his class to say goodbye to my son."

No Janni, rest assured the rest of us can see you made the right decision. It is right for the child to have a formal good bye - in this case the school was doing the right thing - and for the mother to come and take part in this and be friendly and normal to everything makes it much easier for the child - a healthy goodbye makes the transition much easier. If the child is caught up in parental conflicts with the school, this is much harder. Imagine how that would have been for the child if his mother shook her head and refused to accept flowers offered to her.

The reasons the child is leaving the school are for the parents to decide and take care of - it would be unfair to impose it on the children, and the parents' job is to make the transition as easy and positive for him as possible. Janni you could not possibly have handled it better.
Try to remember attacks just like this from Phoenix/lush are normal when leaving one of these communities.

Thank you, Diana and Barking.

In fact, there's something almost refreshing about being insulted in this way - Judas, hypocrite etc

It helps me see behind the veil a little more clearly. There actually isn't a lot of love and light, is there?

Janni - just keep repeating to yourself:

Its not about me.

Barking
x

Janni,

That Pheonix/Lush, Waldorf defender, feels free to hand out derogatory labels to posters here at Mumsnet definitely should be a reminder of what you have left behind in leaving Waldorf.

Margaret

Yes - Margaret, absolutely - although I haven't met in RL anyone who has insulted me so blatantly . She attacks ad infinitum but says nothing that would entice ANYONE to send their child to a Steiner School.
That is what I find so curious.

as a disinterested lurking bystander I would urge you to leave all comments as they are. What had previously seems to me to be a lobbing backwards and forwards of pointless quotes and links, in becoming more personal has opened my eyes to the true character of some of the people here.

I'm bemused that a decision to graciously accept some token presents when you are leaving a school (for reasons explained to the school - if I'm reading that right) is attacked as hypocrisy? Hypocrisy would have been telling the school that all was fine ands pretending that you moving away rather than share your concerns with them. It is not in the slihgtest bit hypocritical to then discuss the events with whomever you please - real person or internet community.

Kewcumber - I appreciate your comments. It has become a bit surreal on here!

Janni:

"It has become a bit surreal on here!"

I agree, not least with Zooey - after I mentioned a number of well known Waldorf parents that probably can be assumed to be literate and linking to some reports on Results of Waldorf Education - furiously telling "I have no idea what Chenault" (well known former Waldorf pupil, Chairman and CEO of American Express) "has to do with the CRAP education at waldorf schools", in spite of his documented repeated public endorsement of Waldorf education.

After her furor at my mentioning Chenault, she then proceeds to (again) demand that I produce the original sources of all the comments found here, something Diana Winters has demanded me to provide, before she implicitly "will" substantiate the libel of me, that she published here at Mumsnet 24-Feb-08 13:47:15:

"... in Sune's case ... He's been caught a number of times in lies and ruses that he thought he'd get away with becuase the English-speaking critics wouldn't even know about it or be able to read it.",

when I have asked her to substantiate it and continuing: to write, without providing a single piece of evidence for what she writes:

"The incidents I'm referring to come from your antics on various sites in wikipedia - where you played things quite differently on different-language sites, assuming that the same people weren't able to read both sites."

Some game they play.