Primary school admissions - 14 miles apart

[Ruralparents]

Hi all

I thought I’d join to mine your collective wisdom!

We live in rural Cambridgeshire, 6 miles from our nearest school in one direction and 8 miles from the next nearest in another.

Back in the depths of lockdown we had to a choose a school for our eldest to start at in Sept 2021. My wife teaches at the school 8 miles away and so we chose it because it would be handier. We didn’t know if our eldest would get in there but she did. And it turns out that her catchment school, 6 miles away, was oversubscribed.

Now, in 2023 our daughters school is over subscribed and our youngest has been placed at the catchment school. These two school are 14 miles apart! We lost our appeal and have now got the prospect of trying to manage a 28 mile school run, twice a day.

Cambridgeshire council don’t care, they are hiding behind their protocols and passing the buck.

We asked if our eldest could move schools to be with our youngest and they’ve refused because her year group at the catchment school is oversubscribed.

Out of catchment siblings get the same priority as in catchment siblings in Suffolk and Norfolk, but not Cambridgeshire. And when you live 6 and 8 miles from the two schools it’s fairly obvious you’re going to be at the bottom of the admissions list when either school is over subscribed.

Has anyone had any joy appealing on the grounds of unreasonable journey times etc? I just don’t think anyone should be made to do over 10000 miles a year on the school run. School transport hasn’t been offered but even if we can get it, someone still has to be available to put a 4 year old in a taxi and to collect them etc, it doesn’t help the logistics.

There is an ombudsman, but I think they have just rigged the whole system in order to do as they please and screw those who live out in the sticks.

You're forgetting that the OP and his children are special and going to a childminder would be a terrible trauma that no child has ever been through before 🙄

It does sound tricky but then at the same time; you live in a rural location!? What do you expect? There’s a reason rural property is much cheaper and it’s because most parents have to factor in schools when deciding where to live so need to choose somewhere with more amenity and as a result have to pay much more (and subsequently then work full time stressful jobs to pay for the higher mortgage). It feels a bit weird to me to be shocked by this; if you don’t want a long commute then move? If you need to live in that location because of your job then sort some childcare. This is what most working parents have to do. I may be being unfair but it feels slightly entitled to complain about this? You chose to live rurally and send your oldest out of catchment, surely just own your bad decision/bad luck and look for solutions. Sounds like names on waiting list required for a bit. Hope you manage to find a place.

They may well say 'Sorry you put your oldest in out of catchment school' your response is "yes we did however circumstances have changed, we can nolonger facilitate her travel, cost of living, etc etc".

Put it back to the council she needs transport.

Nobody can guarantee that they'll be able to drive kids to school. Cars break, need repair, people have accidents and illness.
Even with childminders etc, in some areas they are like hens teeth.

Which would be true.

Did you give some thought to speaking to the Coram Children's Legal Centre, just so that you had the comfort of knowing that you had explored every possible avenue?

https://www.childrenslegalcentre.com/get-legal-advice/education/

Hi OP

As I said up thread you really need to get your admin in order and keep on top of it. Get your DC on the waiting lists for each other's schools. Know when the renewal date is and re-register.

Appeal every year, particularly once DC1 gets to KS2 and class size rules change.

By the sounds of it, there is little chance of getting the younger sibling into the out of catchment school.

I guess you are experiencing, the very worst of catchment usurping siblings rule (although I do know families with 3 young DC at 3 separate schools). All of this is a consequence of you choosing DC1 to go out of catchment. Had you posted a few years ago about which school do I choose for DC1 and explained catchment usurps siblings and DC of teachers, you would have had a lot of informed parents telling you to choose your catchment school to avoid what you are going through now.

I am genuinely sorry you are going through this. Navigating 2 primary schools is a ball ache (my 2 primary school journey ends in a couple of weeks!)

All of this info was available pre you choosing schools also, you appealed but as the admissions process had been applied correctly and circumstances are not 'special' enough your appeal failed.

There are some amazing appeals specialists on Mumsnet. Once the dust has settled, start another thread asking for advice from appeals specialists

I have looked at their website, it says the initial advice is free, but aren't they then likely to run me up bills at £120-180/hr to in the end tell me that the admissions authorities set the criteria, set the number of forms in a school and can't be challenged?

I have no specific experience of Coram CLC. However, my general experience of lawyers claiming to understand admissions is that they often give poor advice. I have been involved in cases where the advice given by lawyers was so poor that a very winnable case was turned into one that was guaranteed to lose. Unfortunately, by the time I got involved it was too late to do anything about it.

If I were in your shoes and could stretch myself I’d put them in private Ed. They have excellent wrap around care usually.
The whole situation lacks common sense from the LEA having described the situation to them.

I sympathise with you.
The state school situation is only going to get worse if the new gov slaps on 20% on the fees and more children will leave private and go to state which is already on it knees. I expect more of this sort of threads in the next few years.

Good luck op.

Private could be tricky still - not many private schools in the middle of the countryside so transport would still be a problem.

Several of the “amazing appeals specialists” have been on this thread from the outset. The gist of our collective contribution has been that, as the LEA followed its published admissions criteria, did not make an error and the appeal panel found no reason to overturn the decision (however sympathetic they may have been), the OP needs to find some way of making this work until such time as he can get both children into the same school.

@PanelChair Except the op continually comes back with numerous reasons why they are a special case so unlikely to listen or take advice.

No, that wouldn't be the situation. They wouldn't pursue a case which had absolutely no merit.

The logical thing to do would be to contact them so that you can explain what the situation is and see what they advise. As they handle so many cases of this kind, they will be able to give you an accurate assessment of the chances of overturning the existing decision.

You have said in one of your earlier posts that you feel that you are going round and round in circles and I fear that this is going to continue unless you take advice from an experienced solicitor specialising in this field.

If you spend the next few weeks wondering and fretting, you will still be in exactly the same position you are in now in a month's time, just feeling even more upset.

Something which compounds people's distress is the feeling that there is nothing they can do; taking some kind of action, in your case, by making the initial telephone call to the CLC, is often the key to resolving things; the feeling of being able to take some kind of control over a situation, even if that is simply about getting good professional advice, can make it easier to cope with things.

You have nothing to lose by making the initial contact with the CLC; that's what I would advise.

Tbf they are a fairly unusual case.

Why? The case has no merit, so why would they pursue it? Everyone has acted entirely correctly.

If eldest child had gone to catchment, the travel issue would have occurred then, not now. If eldest is in the car with parent(s)/ sibling, they can be relaxing for the additional time (not ideal, but apart from LA transport will be the option). The eldest after a year, may be able to get in as an extra pupil, many schools have over 30 in juniors for extra money, but there may be children closer waiting for a place), then maybe they could both travel in LA transport as together. Are there no other children from pre-school going to your catchment to organise some car sharing?

It is an imperfect system, but has to be consistently applied. You can comment annually on school admission arrangements/ provide feedback- in accademy schools staff often come as 3rd compared to LA's below catchment

I think this is the problem for me.

The absolute refusal to accept the good advice given and instead continue to insist why they are a special case and should be given special treatment.

The trouble with special treatment is it sets precedent and precedent then makes for a whole world of other problems and unfairness.

As unfair as it may be, I don't think there is ultimately a fairer way to do it either which doesn't involve abolishing allocation being done by local councils. Its not viable to do by individual schools and it's not viable to do in a national system either. Universal criteria across the country has its own pitfalls too - they tend to be more sensitive to local issues with gaming the system and favouring rich kids over poor kids.

CofE Aided schools (for example) will often administer their own admissions but they still must meet legal obligations. LAs set out very clearly how you apply to such schools. There are slight variations between schools admission policies when a community school. Often to reflect staff and siblings and maybe residence as secondary level.

Rurally, I think catchment works best but, of course, the LA trying to manage falling roles in one area against a growing population in other areas means there is not completely equal provision.

@RedToothBrush Overall I think the current legislation is as fair as is possible to as many as possible. I definitely think tweaking for “special” categories will leave the majority disgruntledwhen they are ousted from their catchment school. What would we do if schools near hospitals gave priority to doctors? Ignore everyone else that lives nearby? The bigger issue is planning for contraction and expansion of schools. The Wiltshire planning document sets out pretty well what the dilemmas are.

There does seems to be an argument around making it clearer what the requirements are for entitlement to school transport on the application form. And perhaps a warning over implications for subsequent children.

ISPEA is primarily intended to give advice for pupils with SEN but the top section here refers to all pupils: https://www.ipsea.org.uk/news/home-to-school-transport-understanding-your-rights

This suggests that if the OP is willing to move his eldest to the 'nearest suitable school' (ie the catchment school) but they do not have a place, then the current (out of catchment) school has to be considered as the nearest suitable school for transport purposes.

@IWillNoLie Most of us who live rurally look it up. Where I live, it’s Dc (plus others in priority groups) who live further than 2 miles at 5 years old or 3 miles at 7. This includes catchment Dc and others who are allocated elsewhere because they cannot get into catchment school as that school doesn’t have enough places. Unsafe walking route at a shorter distance is another category with caveats as above. As OP didn’t list catchment school and therefore didn’t fail to get a place there, transport to his choice of school is not available. Also Dc is not 5. It would be the same in my LA.

Choosing a school, other than catchment school, often has consequences. However parents are given a clear steer towards reading the transport policy and looking at what’s available, or not, when making choices.

What good advice is it that you and @TizerorFizz think i'm not taking? We have worked out a least worst solution, it's not like i'm sitting on mumsnet all day making snide comments at other people who have come forward with their issues.

For all your goading of me claiming I think we're special and so on, teacher recruitment and retention in rural areas is a big problem. There is a report here that you might like to read , it covers some of the attempts to stop the rot in our geographic area amongst others: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/992744/6-7335_DfE_OA_Teacher_Insight_Guide.pdf

I quote from the report:

“If we want to keep staff, it’s not necessarily about teaching and learning responsibilities and wages, but about developing them as a person and valuing them.” Primary head teacher

Along with an article about the number of teachers leaving the profession: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jun/08/teachers-england-schools-figures-department-education-survey

“Addressing teacher retention should be at the heart of dealing with the teacher supply challenge, with further policy action needed to reduce teacher workload and increase the competitiveness of teacher pay,”. -
Teaching unions blamed poor working conditions and the long-term erosion in pay for the exodus"

Unlike most of the public I actually see the effort that goes into teaching, the hours lesson planning after the children are in bed, the marking, the report writing, the getting home late after dealing with problems and parental issues, the running after school clubs, all the extras that go into running a school.

Placing a teachers infant children in schools 14 miles apart, (whatever her supposed mistakes) and then telling her neither child can move and to suck it up, is not going to help teacher retention.

Thats an interesting document, thanks.

I think that perhaps transport for our eldest on the days my wife isn't working would perhaps help as long as it left early enough and got home late enough to have allowed the school run for the youngest to have happened. I think the council would fight it hard though, it would mean a taxi for her and would be expensive.

We don't really think transport for the youngest is worth it as if one of us has to be home by 3.30pm or whenever the transport arrives, then we may as well hop in the car and do the school run. We think wraparound care is the answer there on my wife's work days.

Rest assured we have been putting a lot of thought and planning into how best to handle it all. It's going to be a case of suck it and see.

Also, there have been a few good suggestions about teaming up with other parents along the route to share transport to youngests catchment school. I've had a little count up on Google Maps and there are 17 houses in the 5 miles between us and the edge of the town, of which I reckon I know of 2/3 of them and they're all older people. I've not seen primary age children playing in the gardens of the others although it's not impossible. I did say it was pretty rural!😂

Thanks for the suggestions.

I would fight to get transport in place for both children, especially on the days you wife isn't working.
Much easier and less stressful for her to be home waiting on the kids than racing to get one in the hope of being home before the other.

Two schools near me both with buses, one gets the bus children out of class, on the bus and away just before the 3pm bell. The other waits for the 3pm bell and for all the children to have left the playground before the bus leaves.

The other question is are there other farm children nearby are they bussed or taxied to school?

Yes, I think you’re right, transport for both would be good in the longer term, that’s a good shout.

We’ve made our peace with the mileage, the family car already does 20k a year already and it would have been nice not to add to it but we lost. If in the the long term we can get transport then that will be good, but for now we’ll juggle after school clubs depending on the day of the week and see how it goes.

Initially I think we want to make a way to drop the youngest at school and pick him up for two reasons. One, to get to know other parents at the school gate, he didn’t go to pre-school there and it’s to know the other children and families your child is talking about at tea time.

And two, our youngest has assumed for the last couple of years that he’ll be going to ‘big school’ with his sister. Now though, he’ll be dropped at one school, whilst his mum and sister will head off to their school. He’ll get used to it pretty quickly like children do, but I think he needs a friendly face at the school gate at least initially.