Primary school admissions - 14 miles apart

[Ruralparents]

Hi all

I thought I’d join to mine your collective wisdom!

We live in rural Cambridgeshire, 6 miles from our nearest school in one direction and 8 miles from the next nearest in another.

Back in the depths of lockdown we had to a choose a school for our eldest to start at in Sept 2021. My wife teaches at the school 8 miles away and so we chose it because it would be handier. We didn’t know if our eldest would get in there but she did. And it turns out that her catchment school, 6 miles away, was oversubscribed.

Now, in 2023 our daughters school is over subscribed and our youngest has been placed at the catchment school. These two school are 14 miles apart! We lost our appeal and have now got the prospect of trying to manage a 28 mile school run, twice a day.

Cambridgeshire council don’t care, they are hiding behind their protocols and passing the buck.

We asked if our eldest could move schools to be with our youngest and they’ve refused because her year group at the catchment school is oversubscribed.

Out of catchment siblings get the same priority as in catchment siblings in Suffolk and Norfolk, but not Cambridgeshire. And when you live 6 and 8 miles from the two schools it’s fairly obvious you’re going to be at the bottom of the admissions list when either school is over subscribed.

Has anyone had any joy appealing on the grounds of unreasonable journey times etc? I just don’t think anyone should be made to do over 10000 miles a year on the school run. School transport hasn’t been offered but even if we can get it, someone still has to be available to put a 4 year old in a taxi and to collect them etc, it doesn’t help the logistics.

There is an ombudsman, but I think they have just rigged the whole system in order to do as they please and screw those who live out in the sticks.

Nursery, with naps, set up for long days, not the first year at school.

If other parents like you and @myrtleWilson want to do that to your 4 year olds that’s your choice.

I’ve been quite clear that I don’t think the LA should have procedures which leave people with 14 miles between primary schools.

In any case, I think this thread is going round in circles, it seems it’s been one of the most popular on here in the last few days.

I think everyone’s had their say, those who think we’re entitled whiners gaming the system and got what we deserved still think that.

Those who think that we’ve made an honest mistake and fallen foul of a crappy system still think it.

Maybe some have changed their mind.

The LA doesn’t give a sh*t.

And so I think it best to draw the thread to a close, I’ll keep an eye over the next few days to see if any new ideas pop up.

Other than that, thanks to all, and if you’re reading this from the archives in years to come, you’re in a complex situation and you hope the admissions staff will give you the benefit of the doubt in future, they won’t!

See ya.

Sorry, you're living in a dream world. A childminder before and after school, two days a week is absolutely standard for kids with two working parents. Plenty do it more than two days a week.

Your 'this is soooooooooooooo unfair' teenager schtick is getting a bit wearing. You're a working parent with a working spouse. Like loads of others. You have some special circumstances - so do others. Like firefighters with shifts which change weekly. Or people who sometimes have to do nights. Or those who travel for work. Everyone else manages to find a solution, and your childminder solution is pretty reasonable.

He's not been put in that position by the LEA, he's been put in that position by his parent's choices.

The point I am trying to make, and which you have not yet answered is, why should an in catchment child sacrifice their place in a school to accommodate an out of catchment child who lives further away? Why should another family be inconvenienced because you made a decision 3 years ago which didn't pan out?

You seem to be acting like the LA could just make an exception for you and could just sneak your DS into your preferred school when doing so would be breaking the law. If an in catchment child didn't get into their catchment school because of your out of catchment DS then that child's parents would be well within their rights to appeal and they would have a very good chance of winning that appeal as they could demonstrate that the oversubscription criteria were not applied fairly.

The basic crux of the matter is that, in order to accommodate what you want, you're asking the LA to break the law and to inconvenience another family who is more entitled to a place than your DS.

Why you think that is fair or acceptable is genuinely baffling me.

Crossposted my ‘winding up thread’ post with yours.

Particular thanks for your knowledgable input though.

The local councillor responded to say they’d spoke to the LA, that the LA had already told us they were applying the criteria. And both the councillor and the LA heavily insinuated it was our fault for going out of catchment in the first place.

I have responded to say that as there were, it turns out, 44 applicants for 30 places this year, in a school that was under subscribed enough to be allowing our daughter in 2 years ago, it might suggest that they have failed in their duty to provide adequate places matched to their house building schemes and that the fault might not be entirely ours.

I don’t hold out much (any) hope though, the buck will have travelled across very many desks before anyone does anything.

OP yes it’s annoying. The consensus here is you won’t be able to successfully appeal.

I would advise you to transfer your energies in managing this problem (which is not just your wife gives her job up) rather then being angry with schools, LEA and other posters.

• Sounds like your youngest needs to go on the waiting list for the school your wife works at (because presumably if your other child move to the other school you would have those problems).
• You can do school runs. Yes possibly not at all of them, and certain types of year possibly not, but you can. My Dad was a dairy farmer my Mum was a GP. School was 17 miles away (my parents didn’t want me to go to the nearer schools because they literally had 12 kids in). My Dad did school runs - often last minute because Mum was with a patient (this was when GPs would do house calls at night). He had a big farm (several labourers), and I get your concern about money - it is huge pressure running a farm; however, farmers always think everything will collapse if they are not there all the time. It will not on a 12 mile round trip.
• Consider an au pair/mothers help. Even if you get girls in both schools I guarantee your commuting will get worse. Kids will have play dates, clubs etc and in a rural area this is even worse.

I’m curious if you or your wife have also posted in AIBU about the state of farming? Only because the circumstances and style of writing sound very similar

interesting reading anyway

And you think that rules are rules, there are never any mitigating circumstances as to why choices have been made with the best information available at the time and rural teachers can be replaced at will.

I’ve had constant insinuations that we’ve gamed the system on here and from the council. Why would we? If my wife wasn’t a teacher we’d have sent the kids to the catchment school. But she is, so we did what we did for her employment to continue, you basically don’t think teachers should get any assistance from their employer, fine, I don’t agree obviously.

But as I said, we’re going round in circles.

Never posted anywhere else on Mumsnet, do they whinge about it? I love my job and enjoy the challenge!

I don't think you're trying to game the system and I totally understand why you made the decision you did for your DD - it made sense at the time given the information you had. However, you must have known when you made that decision that there would be a possibility that you would find yourself in this situation when your DS started school?

If you didn't think that this might be a possibility then you obviously didn't put as much thought into the original decision as you claim to.

You made a decision based on what was right for your family at the time but unfortunately that decision had now come around to bite you on the bum. These things happen - sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. You pay your money you take your chance but having a go at the LEA for following the rules is ridiculous. Obviously the LEA have to follow the rules or they open themselves up to all sorts of claims. They CAN'T make an exception for you, it's against the law and ranting and raving about how unreasonable they are and how unfair it all is is making you look a little ridiculous in all honesty.

You took a chance, it didn't work out. Now put on your big boy pants and deal with it.

Don't know why the link was posted again. Fat fingers at work again I suspect.

Hampshire do the same.
priority goes to adopted/children in care.
Then people in catchment with siblings in the school.
Then people in catchment without siblings.
Then people out of catchment with siblings, then people out of catchment without siblings.
A few years back not a single child out of catchment got in, siblings or otherwise.. lots of people moved their older kids to other schools to keep them in the same school as each other. It’s a nightmare having 2 children 14 miles apart at schools.. It is a logistical nightmare, having to drop one so much before the other just to get both in on time… I would hate to have my child taxi’d to school in year R too!
I would except the place for September and put your elder daughter on the waiting list for that school and you get for your wives school. Whichever has a place come up first move the other to that school. In the mean time I’d apply for breakfast club and after school club..

There isn’t much you can do except the place and put both children on waiting lists for each others schools. Hopefully someone will drop out and your little one will get the place.. good luck

Except in Hampshire, transport wouldn’t be offered until the term when the child becomes compulsory school aged. Fortunately I think Cambridgeshire is different.

They’re not to be fair. Your childcare and working hours are not the fault of the LEA.

As a teacher, at my initial school, I dropped my two primary dcs at a childminder at 7.15 am 5 days a week, then picked them up at 5.45-6 pm, also 5 days a week. DH had left the house to work before I left, and was home long after.

My daily commute was 90 minutes round trip (20 miles each way). DH’s was over an hour each way, 100 mile round trip by train and bike.

Did I consider the LA owed it to me to make my life easier? No. At the time, there were few teaching vacancies and teacher priority for admissions was unknown. Did I try to leave my job? No, though after 2 years I did manage to get a job in a more local school, though because of the constraints of a teaching job and lack of wrap around care, my dcs continued at the childminder until they started secondary.

I do hope that, similarly, over time your children will end up in the same school and / or your wife finds a job that makes the commuting easier.

Even if applications go up, it doesn’t mean all are in catchment and should be admitted. That doesn’t mean the school should go to 45 entry either and it could well be the other dc have suitable alternatives this year. If the population was heading upwards with new houses being built, that’s different. Plus I don’t see why the LA applying the law is wrong. Your councillor and la are correct.

On the ‘more applicants than places’, just checked statistics for an area I know. At least 1 school had 3x as many applicants as places. However, overall for the LA, all applicants got school places, with a few to spare in some schools.

Should the oversubscribed school expand to 3x its current size (already at an average size for the type of school)? No, that’s obviously inefficient (as well as unfeasible) because then there would be other schools half empty.

Yes, there us a problem with running a system ‘too leanly’, with no spare places anywhere. But equally, it makes no sense to build capacity massively for school A while school B just up the road is half empty.

Think about chickens. If you have a delivery / hatching that gives 40 chickens and you have a shed for 30, do you build a new shed for the extra 10 even when you have another shed with only 18 in? No, you add the 10 to the 18 to make 2 full sheds, not build a new shed / expand one to result in 3, of which 2 are half empty.

Don't follow this at all I'm afraid, why would she have had to leave her job to be able to do the school run to catchment school? Would she still need to leave job if you changed to catchment school? People do change jobs if they need to, to fit around childcare / life circumstances, it's not unusual?

If it was lockdown or not lockdown I think you should have realised it was a risk to put one in, that the other wouldn't also get in (considering there isn't a siblings policy). Bringing lockdown into it muddys the waters. I thought you were going to say it was because you weren't allowed to go and look around schools in person or something which would be more of a relevant point.

Do you mean this one? https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4872231-to-tell-you-how-fucked-uk-agriculture-is

It’s not me. Reading the OP they’re in poultry meat production, a totally different industry to egg production, different breeds, different systems, different shed designs, almost as different as pigs and chickens, I don’t know a great deal about it.

Maybe I’ll pop over there and have a play!

Op could you pressure the council to provide transport for your older child especially on the days your wife isn't working?

If they say no because they are out of catchment - then say well give me a space in catchment.

They are really unreasonable to say no to both those questions.

@Sugarfree23 you’ve hit on something there. Cambridgeshire is fond of saying that it will only provide transport to the ‘nearest suitable school’ with ‘suitable’ having a very narrow definition that effectively equates to mainstream or specialist. And they only have one kind of specialist school. BUT, in case law it has been established that even if the child in question is not at the nearest school, if no nearer schools can offer the child a space then the school they are at becomes in practice the nearest suitable school for the child.

All these posts berating the OP that he “should have known” when he applied for his oldest child - what the f* do you guys actually know?!!! School admissions criteria and catchments areas and sibling numbers, EHCP numbers and population numbers are changing all the time and so fast that you cannot make a judgement at a point in time and count on it to be the same in a couple of years time when your second child arrives at school age.

The system is screwed because they tried to offer parents “choice” in which school they chose, I am always hearing how much easier it was when you were just placed in your closest school and that was that. All I’ve ever wanted is for my kids to go to their closest schools but they weren’t able, not because of me not “understanding the system” (and I’ve worked in a senior role in schools finance for a London borough so I know “how it works”) but because every LEA is different and every school is different and when the existing criteria start to prejudice a group of people it takes time to adjust. The OP made the right decision at a difficult time (and stop saying it wasn’t stressful during covid, it was and a lot of people are still suffering as a result of the disruption to their lives) and now he is just trying to gather information to make sure he does the right thing for his young children. Yes he wants to make life as easy as possible for him and his wife, because without this, they don’t have the energy to support their children. And yes others are in similarly difficult, or worse, situations and he’s not saying they deserve to be there either, he is just trying to get the best solution to his for the sake of his family, and that’s a bloody good fight to be having, and good luck to him and I hope it all works out well.

We got our 4th preference school and when I applied for transport (it’s over 3 miles walk away) I was refused because there was a closer school that we could have applied for and which he would have got a place at. The school in question had always been oversubscribed and it is a different borough and I’d never even heard of it before - to be honest I don’t remember it even being on the list of schools closest to us when I did the application as I was sure I had put the schools in order of distance to us. The LEA will always find a way to weedle out of paying for stuff - the fact the “nearer” school
is also over 3 miles and would have been eligible for transport to makes no difference. The school he was allocated wasn’t oversubscribed either. I appreciate this tactic is because LEAs are struggling for funds having been massively underfunded by the current Tory govt for the past 10 yrs, but it still stinks.

you cannot make a judgement at a point in time and count on it to be the same in a couple of years time

You can’t know for certain, but you can know whether there is a chance you won’t be eligible for a place in further years. OP knew it wasn’t their catchment school and they presumably looked at the school allocation outcomes for previous years, so they would have known out of catchment siblings didn’t always get offered a place and that it would be a risk.

That’s an interesting suggestion, making them pay out for a serious about of tax mileage over the next 5-7 years would be a small, sweet, consolation prize.

Unfortunately I think they’ll simply say that we chose to put our eldest out of catchment and that therefore they aren’t obliged to pay it.