Primary school admissions - 14 miles apart

[Ruralparents]

Hi all

I thought I’d join to mine your collective wisdom!

We live in rural Cambridgeshire, 6 miles from our nearest school in one direction and 8 miles from the next nearest in another.

Back in the depths of lockdown we had to a choose a school for our eldest to start at in Sept 2021. My wife teaches at the school 8 miles away and so we chose it because it would be handier. We didn’t know if our eldest would get in there but she did. And it turns out that her catchment school, 6 miles away, was oversubscribed.

Now, in 2023 our daughters school is over subscribed and our youngest has been placed at the catchment school. These two school are 14 miles apart! We lost our appeal and have now got the prospect of trying to manage a 28 mile school run, twice a day.

Cambridgeshire council don’t care, they are hiding behind their protocols and passing the buck.

We asked if our eldest could move schools to be with our youngest and they’ve refused because her year group at the catchment school is oversubscribed.

Out of catchment siblings get the same priority as in catchment siblings in Suffolk and Norfolk, but not Cambridgeshire. And when you live 6 and 8 miles from the two schools it’s fairly obvious you’re going to be at the bottom of the admissions list when either school is over subscribed.

Has anyone had any joy appealing on the grounds of unreasonable journey times etc? I just don’t think anyone should be made to do over 10000 miles a year on the school run. School transport hasn’t been offered but even if we can get it, someone still has to be available to put a 4 year old in a taxi and to collect them etc, it doesn’t help the logistics.

There is an ombudsman, but I think they have just rigged the whole system in order to do as they please and screw those who live out in the sticks.

Not true at all - most people think there's priority for siblings. In my view there should be, to avoid this sort of ridiculous scenario.

OP, it is silly to say your wife has to give up your job when your dd should (I think) get school transport. I thought if you lived more than 3 miles away you get it? Why on earth would she give up a good career for the sake of a year's taxi rides that you won't even have to pay for?

This situation sounds very stressful OP, I wouldn’t be happy either and neither would most of these people commenting if it was happening to them!
These replies are awful even for mumsnet, they completely lack empathy, they are apathetic at best and victim blaming at worst. How can our systems ever improve with attitudes like these!
Are people really arguing the number of miles with the OP, i think the guy living there might know how many miles it is a bit better than some randoms off the internet.
The comments about the OP quitting his job are equally ridiculous even if they weren’t tied in for the next five years, he’s is hardly going to walk away from the families main source of income and tied house.
Finally, the fact that it’s happening to lots of people makes it less acceptable not more.
Honestly, people if you don’t have anything useful to contribute maybe just be quiet. He didn’t ask AIBU he asked about the appeal process but if it was asking no OP YANBU, the council is being unreasonable and mumsnet is definitely the asshole!
Of course it was logical to send your eldest to the school your wife works at you didn’t have a crystal ball to tell you which school would be over subscribed in a couple of years time and you didn’t know every piece of small print, most people don’t. It was your first time sending a child to school you are learning as you go along just like most of the rest of us, unfortunately your learning curve has been a bit steeper than most.
Hope you get it sorted OP.

Yes and there should be exceptions! Alleged intelligent people on 'panels' should be able to see this is completely unworkable and it is in the best interests of the dc to be in the same school.

No 'beauty contest' required <obviously> just the application of common sense, sadly lacking in many things school related. It's always a bit 'computer says no' ime.

People are being so ridiculous in their responses it’s a ridiculous situation and now the school will end up losing an employee and prob won’t be able to backfill.

put both children on the waiting list for either school so there is some hope for the future but I’m afraid I don’t have anything useful to add. I ended up having to homeschool for a bit until we could get school places

If she is May born and only 4, can’t you defer a year and appeal for the different criteria when your eldest is in year 3?

Any decision by a panel which is clearly at odds with the appeals code can and possibly will be overturned by the courts.

In most appeals (known as ‘’prejudice’ appeals), the panel has wide discretion to decide that the detriment to the child if not given a place outweighs any detriment to the school in having to accommodate an extra pupil, and so the panel can allow the appeal. But in ICS appeals, the panel can allow the appeal only if there’s been an error or the decision to refuse a place is so unreasonable in the legal sense that it cannot be allowed to stand.

The extensively-trained members of panels can often see that parents are in a difficult situation, but in ICS appeals especially they may not be able to fix it. That’s why parents are encouraged to explore all other options, such as LEA transport, lift shares, childminders, wraparound care or (as the OP is doing here) looking for other schools which might have places for both children.

I would suggest contacting the local paper. Councils don't like negative press and it may help them come up with a sensible solution to what is a ridiculous situation for you to try and deal with OP

@Janiie As someone who formerly headed up admissions and also gave the LA case on appeals, as @PanelChair says, it’s very much about following admissions criteria and the law. Schools have often agonized about admissions criteria and not a computer in sight. Ditto on appeal panels.

LAs are charged with planning school provision . Unfortunately it’s not an exact science. The other issue is that schools fall in and out of favour. CofE like to expand schools and parents have favourite schools and then these might be less popular over tube. Some schools really do need more pupils to stay open. Many village schools would be minuscule and possibly close without out of catchment Dc. The CofE are big on recruiting from other catchment areas. Others need more spaces because they serve an expanding area. Then you might move from 30 intake to 45. Guess what, lots of parents do not like that either.

The truth is that schools tend to set their admissions to meet the needs of their local community. The op had a catchment school. He preferred another one. Around me it was the case that out of catchment siblings took places from Dc within catchment. This is the issue when schools are popular and many communities do not think this is fair.

Setting admissions policies, plus church schools who favour their own, is a minefield and no one is happy all the time. However the situation here was clear. It’s always been the case that rural farmers have to think about school and the journey to school. But they are often a valued member of a community and stick to the local school. Many do start early and break to take Dc to school or have a childminder. It’s just a necessity as other working partners find.

So it’s not computers or any dark forces. It’s human beings trying to be fair to as many families as possible.

I also work in a school and I agree with this. Go to the head/chair of governors of your wife's school. They wouldn't be able to go over the infant class size but they might be able to bump your child to the top of the waiting list if they change the in year admissions criteria.

Is there a reason why you didn't find out about the place until May? National offer day was 17th April. Was it a late application?

Yes and other posters from other LAs have said that individual circumstances are assessed and flexibility/common sense can prevail.

My children's school is also in the opposite direction of my work and I have a similar distance trip dropping my kids one direction and then doubling back to go out the opposite direction for my work - on days I meetings or need to start earlier I used to use a childminder, but now use the school breakfast club.

I understand your predicament is inconvenient, but your logistical issues are not as impossible as you are making them out to be - there are solutions are workarounds, you are just unwilling to make them - and its something many many other parents have to do.

Yes, it would have been easier if your younger child had been given a place at your wife's school, but it was oversubscribed and you were out of the catchment area - a risk you took when you applied for your eldest place. Giving your child a place would cost someone who actually lives in the catchment are their place, and shift those logistical problems to someone else who actually does meet the criteria.

School placements aren't given on the convenience of the parents school runs. It's actually coming across a bit entitled and out of touch as many parents have to juggle difficult school/work runs while youre demanding you should be accomodated. And your defeatist attitude and lack of accountability for creating this situation in the first place is a bit annoying.

@manontroppo I’m sure you were a diligent and honourable governor and panel member. I’ve known several in Cambridgeshire who are and who are doing their best for the betterment of their schools.

But you must be aware that governors, like all categories of people, can be ignorant, insular and dishonourable, even in the name of the ‘best interests’ of their school. I have run into governors in Cambridgeshire who were determined to keep my child out of their school at all costs, even though her ehcp meant she had priority, regardless of PAN or ICS, at any school we cared to name. Because the law was not on their side they resorted to bullying, discrimination and idiocy to ensure we knew we were unwelcome. Reference my username.

Some children should rightly be an exception for admissions. Rural teachers’ kids are a pretty good candidate for exceptions. Some governors and panel members are great at the roles and some are not. Cambridgeshire as a LA is cash-strapped, obstinate and has wonky priorities in most cases.

I much prefer the Scottish system where children are guaranteed a place at their catchment school. In this situation the eldest would get a place. Stick them both on school transport. Wife heads to work in the opposite direction.

Your 4 year old doesn't need to be at school. They need an education and you can continue doing that using a childminder and alternative education options such as forest schools.

For clarity: governors should not be sitting on appeal panels for the schools at which they are governors.

My child is going to a school which is out of our catchment in September.

would I except their younger sibling to get a place in the same school over another out of catchment child with no siblings at the school? Absolutely yes

would I expect younger dc to get a place at the school over a child that lived round the corner? No way!

I get why you contested it, I really do. And I feel for you because it’s a situation j wouldn’t want to be in… but the harsh reality is this is something you run the risk of and for all you know the other children than got in are all in catchment hence the priority.

Cambridgeshire is already a desirable and rapidly growing area - so competitive when it comes to housing, jobs and school places. This is not something that should have come as a surprise.

OP you say if they go to the newest option school in a different county they cannot get transport. This is going to make your lives harder for the 7 years they are there.

If you take the place at the catchment school it’s short term nightmare but hopefully only short term as they will be able to use transport as they get older, or if you can move your older child there in the future and they can then get transport together.

Obviously the ideal is that you get a place for your youngest in your wife’s school fairly quickly but that doesn’t sound likely.

The school you mentioned which is past your wife’s school sounds a good option logistically too.

If they do get transport is it a bus or taxi, and will it take them for wraparound care or only for school hours? Our village school only took for school hours as it was a school bus, but I believe the few who were using taxis as not on the bus route had more flexibility.

I think you have had a hard time on here and I don’t see why. The obvious choice was for your child to go to your wife’s school in this scenario, I know many teachers in rural schools whose children go there out of catchment. I hope you manage to find a workable long term solution.

The bloke is too important to do school runs. So why make life so difficult for yourselves by living so far away from schools? Utter madness.

The post of mine that you quote was a response to an earlier post by another lady which Mumsnet have deleted because it violated their community guidelines.

I’d think that might give you a clue as to whether or not you’ve read this correctly.

Makes me grateful that in Scotland you automatically get a space in your catchment school and only need to apply if you want to go to one outside the catchment area.

@Janiie Common sense is often to preserve community schools for those living in the community by catchment sibling policy and a defined catchment area. Where non catchment siblings are higher up than catchment Dc it’s perceived as unfair to catchment Dc. One blip year can make a difference to places being available to catchment Dc for years to come if out of catchment siblings always get in. It’s very difficult when a school might only have 15 places, as many rural schools do. Therefore it’s common sense to preserve the community as it’s defined by catchment and reduce the travel footprint.

Cant believe the horrible posts on here. Sorry I cant help but I definitely feel for you. Maybe you could look into a babysitter each morning until the taxi comes?

I have absolutely nothing helpful to comment, but I’m so confused by the Uk school system. Where I am, you just go to the local school. It is required they make room. If that means adding an extra class, that’s what happens. Transportation is provided as long as you live outside 2.4 km, or 1.5km on rural roads.

Two things:

Firstly, in the OP’s scenario, the eldest would definitely have got a place in the catchment school had they applied for it when starting school.

Secondly, the Scottish system relies on excess capacity and lower population density. In England, it is the law that infant classes do not exceed 30, so ‘keeping a couple of places just in case a child wants to move schools a couple of years later’ would mean 2 or 3 children being deprived of their places. The English Government chooses to run its school estate very close to capacity - no spare classrooms (or spare schools - Edinburgh for one has a complete spare school, used while schools are being refurbished / built and otherwise mothballed) - and has taken from local authorities the power to build new schools. That means that pupils are allocated to non-first-choice schools with spaces wherever these may be, rather than infinitely expanding very popular schools., and there are strictly-applied rules for who gets which place.

@Ruralparents Your child doesn’t reach compulsory school age until the term after his 5th birthday, which I understand is September 2024 from your comments.

Just leave him at nursery and then apply for a Year 1 place next year. The curriculum is exactly the same - it will make literally no difference to him. I own a nursery and people do this all the time.