Primary school admissions - 14 miles apart

[Ruralparents]

Hi all

I thought I’d join to mine your collective wisdom!

We live in rural Cambridgeshire, 6 miles from our nearest school in one direction and 8 miles from the next nearest in another.

Back in the depths of lockdown we had to a choose a school for our eldest to start at in Sept 2021. My wife teaches at the school 8 miles away and so we chose it because it would be handier. We didn’t know if our eldest would get in there but she did. And it turns out that her catchment school, 6 miles away, was oversubscribed.

Now, in 2023 our daughters school is over subscribed and our youngest has been placed at the catchment school. These two school are 14 miles apart! We lost our appeal and have now got the prospect of trying to manage a 28 mile school run, twice a day.

Cambridgeshire council don’t care, they are hiding behind their protocols and passing the buck.

We asked if our eldest could move schools to be with our youngest and they’ve refused because her year group at the catchment school is oversubscribed.

Out of catchment siblings get the same priority as in catchment siblings in Suffolk and Norfolk, but not Cambridgeshire. And when you live 6 and 8 miles from the two schools it’s fairly obvious you’re going to be at the bottom of the admissions list when either school is over subscribed.

Has anyone had any joy appealing on the grounds of unreasonable journey times etc? I just don’t think anyone should be made to do over 10000 miles a year on the school run. School transport hasn’t been offered but even if we can get it, someone still has to be available to put a 4 year old in a taxi and to collect them etc, it doesn’t help the logistics.

There is an ombudsman, but I think they have just rigged the whole system in order to do as they please and screw those who live out in the sticks.

everyone I know with kids in a school outside their catchment knows there is always a chance you won’t get siblings in

Can you move both children to another school? Move the elder child to the other school so they are both at one school? Lift share for both schools? Ask on Facebook for other parents that might be using either school and lift share for both schools?

I was initially sympathetic to your situation. Then I read through the welter of 'Yes-but, we're different, we're special so the rules shouldn't apply' arguments and my sympathy started to evaporate.

And then I came to this: Erm, I’ve just described our family situation and the practical reasons why my wife and I both think that I can’t quit (a livestock farm doesn’t mean you rock up to work when you like, 5 days a week, so the juggling is tricky), and your response is that I’m one of ‘those men’

Which was a 'the game is up' moment. You seem to assume that no one here has grown up on a farm or has farming family and friends. Or that none of us know how much faster a 12-mile journey is in a quiet rural area than in a town or city. I note that you say a livestock farm and not a dairy farm. IME (as the daughter and sibling of farmers) I'd suggest that a livestock farm is actually pretty flexible. You will have far more flexibility than someone who works 9-5 and has to be at Ely station at 7.30am each day of the week. You work from home.

Beef? Sheep? Alpacas? Water buffalo? Your livestock aren't going to be that bothered if their feed arrives half an hour earlier or later on the two or three days a week you have to do the 12-mile school run. Yes, occasionally you'll have a difficult calving or you'll have been lambing all night or have TB testing or need to take beasts to market or whatever and so on those days perhaps you'll have to pay someone else to take your child into school or your wife will need to do it. You say you're a partner, which suggests that you share the work with other members of your family — your father, a sibling? Perhaps they could support you by stepping up for half an hour a couple of mornings.

And of course, you're in an excellent position to 'lose' your extra fuel, servicing and depreciation costs somewhere in your business — so your actual costs will be much lower they would for most ordinary people to whom the rules apply. Whatever, the minute you played the 'But I'm a partner in a livestock farm' card, your game was up — because you are in one of the most flexible positions possible. And yet still you keep pleading 'special case'. Stop it. Take your child to school three days a week and just stop the mithering. Otherwise you really do seem to be the kind of man who assumes that his wife has to deal with everything related to the children.

What a ridiculous situation. I'm sorry I have no practical advice but just came on to say I think others are being unnecessarily harsh. Of course you would have assumed siblings would attend the same school. In my local authority siblings trumps distance as it should. It's outrageous to have infant children attending different schools.

What a sermon and you're telling the op to stop mithering .

Appeal again, contact your MP contact senior people.

Sounds frustrating.

Hypothetically what would you have done regarding school drop off if you decided to send both to school one (6 miles) and they got in? as that sounded like a viable option, it was just easier in your mind to apply for school two first.

I only ask as in my mind, your wife is travelling to dc1’s school anyway, and would be doing that, so surely DC1 goes with her, and adds nothing to your journey as your wife has always done that, so is no difference? Had both gone to the closest school which sounded like an option originally, your wife would still be going to her school, and you’d need to find a way for them both to get to the other one. In my mind, because your wife is, and would be, going to that further away school regardless if they were at school age, or not, and you have a child there, it makes no difference if the other one is going to the other, as if the both went to the other school, you’d still have your family going in both directions?

I only say this as a farming child, who grew up rurally. Mum taught at our local school (11 miles away) and I went with her every morning, of course I had to stick around before school, and after, but it worked. My younger sister started school when my Dad had moved to another farm in the area, so her catchment was no longer the school I attended, but my parents knew this was a possibility. In there minds, it was no point moving me to my sisters school as it wouldn’t make any difference in miles travelled as Mum would have to go to her school anyway (and was now further away even more, because of our move). So if me and my sister, like your two DC’s moved to the same school, Mum would still be commuting to the OG school anyway, therefore not making it any more/ less complicated.

You still have to figure out what to do with DC2, but it might just be making some sacrifices. Who looks after DC2 now? They can’t be with you on the farm all the time the 2.5 days your wife works, so who looks after them? Could they continue doing what they’re doing for school drop off/ pick up until a taxi arrives?

@Booklover75

Every council has an extremely clear, documented admissions process, available for everyone to see.

Siblings will be one of the criteria, however, it depends where it is applied, sometimes it's after catchment, sometimes before.

It is bonkers but it's to stop people renting a house close to a desirable school, get their DC1 in, then buy a much bigger house miles away but also get their younger DC in. It happens alot

You said there is wraparound care at the school so this should solve the issue and mean your wife can still work.
On the days she works the youngest goes to breakfast club and she drops him off on the way. On the days she’s off eldest can go to breakfast club and drop them off first.
I appreciate it’s not ideal but needs must. From November my 3 year old will go to breakfast club from around 7am and be picked up around 5:30pm (she’s going to the nursery in the school) and my 9 month old will probably be in nursery at least 7:30-5:30, maybe 6pm.
Obviously this will be long days for them but we have to work. We are both teachers like your wife.

Although I do appreciate it’s a pain and I’m surprised that the youngest can’t get a place in a school where she has a sibling and parent as a member of staff! I would be livid! But it’s all about making the best of a bad situation

There’s nothing I can usefully add to this thread, but I’ll bite on the reference to “incompetent jobsworths”.

I’m not sure whether this is meant to be the LEA admissions team, the panel members or both. The admissions team is there to oversee admissions and ensure the published admissions criteria are adhered to. Panel members receive extensive, mandatory training in the school admissions and appeals codes and have to apply them to the situation in front of them. For ICS appeals, the bar is set very high.

Some but not all schools which have catchment areas differentiate between siblings in and out of catchment. This sometimes creates the very difficult situation that OP is in. Nobody thinks that’s ideal - it clearly isn’t - but those LEAs evidently believe it would be wrong to prioritise a child out of catchment over one in catchment. Likewise, I’m sure the appeal panel would have been sympathetic, but the parameters for allowing an ICS appeal are very clearly defined in the code.

Where people are complaining about “incompetence”, there seems to be more than a hint of “schools should set aside their admissions criteria if parents really, really want a place at that school”. Realistically, how would that work? A “beauty contest” to pick the 30 worthiest cases? Overcrowded classrooms to squeeze everyone in?

Hi there, you may have thought of this already but you can kick the can down the road a bit because your May-born child doesn’t legally need to be in school until she’s 5 - many local authorities let you apply for the following year for children born in April or after. This might give you a bit of wiggle room to decide what to do next especially if you’re considering your wife changing jobs etc. 😊

If you think about it on the other hand - imagine your child didn’t get in to their local school because someone out of catchment got a place for a sibling because, predominantly because it was more convenient for them… you would be pissed off

Hi there, you may have thought of this already but you can kick the can down the road a bit because your May-born child doesn’t legally need to be in school until she’s 5 - many local authorities let you apply for the following year for children born in April or after. This might give you a bit of wiggle room to decide what to do next especially if you’re considering your wife changing jobs etc. 😊

I haven't got much to add on top of what anybody's already said, so my post is pretty useless sorry @Ruralparents . But I just wanted to offer my sympathy, and say I'm really sorry for you. That is an absolutely shit thing to happen to you - to expect you to do nearly 30 miles a day round trip to take two kids to school ... It's ludicrous.

When my kids were at school back in the 90s and 00s, siblings would always go to the same school. There was never not enough room for any of them. I find it really bizarre that they're making you go all that way - and making your children go to separate schools - It's actually quite unpleasant.

I would honestly take it to my MP if it was me - this is completely and utterly out of order.

You still have to figure out what to do with DC2, but it might just be making some sacrifices. Who looks after DC2 now? They can’t be with you on the farm all the time the 2.5 days your wife works, so who looks after them? Could they continue doing what they’re doing for school drop off/ pick up until a taxi arrives?

That's a good point. Who's looking after DC2 for 20+ hours a week while your wife is working?

Well said @PanelChair

Answer I never managed to solve this in my life, both of my children went to schools iirc 22 miles apart.

I got a childminder/paid friends/begged/asked family/ to take one and I took the other. It never crossed my mind to give up work for logistics.
I think its irresponsible to give up a career for a short term logistical issue.
I'm certain you can find someone also taking a child to that school and pay them to take yours too. Not long term favours, that's just cheeky. Actual cash in hand. And decent enough to make it worth their time.

Costs less than giving up paid work for a year or two.

Ref the change in my wifes job, it's all up in the air. I find it mad that the authorities don't look after their teachers, those of you who aren't teachers will naturally think they should be treated the same as everyone else.

In the middle of a recruitment and retention crisis, not allowing staff children places is batshit.

Keep on appealing. That is absolutely ridiculous !!

Can’t one school run go with your wife on her work says, and with a friend or neighbour on the other 2.5 days; and then you adjust your hours to make the other school work for your youngest??
that’s what I think you should do. You’ll only have to take her for a couple of years or even organise taking her to the nearest school bus etc.

The only advice I can give is to speak to the heads at both schools. We moved before the start of the school year but had a place in a school near our old house which was over 6 miles away and across town. The head in the new school said he had space whereas LEA didn’t and he helped get our child in. The difference though was we were in catchment and he has issues with his hearing so technically we could have appealed and won on those grounds. The distance between children’s school is not a factor on appeal here especially if one is chosen out of catchment whereas if you are allocated a place out of catchment and then second child doesn’t get in you would have grounds for appeal.

You may have to use paid for after school
/ breakfast clubs which open early (7.30 am and 6 pm here) and suck it up in the meantime as lots of movement in terms of children especially in primary years or seems to be in our school

@Timeturnerplease when people are paying a MASSIVE premium to live near chosen schools I think you will find lots of people will object

OP, so I work in a hospital with massive waiting lists, there is a severe shortage in my role, should I or my family skip the waiting lists as the trust should look “look after their own?”

Clearly, that would be morally wrong but consistent with your line of thought. Expecting an in catchment child to miss out on a school place with their local friends and experience a much longer school journey for the convenience of your family. Entitled much?!!

They do. My daughter was taxied to school whereas her elder sister was in walking distance. Now my 5 year old grandson is collected by taxi each morning

Wil the council provide a taxi and an escort op? Are there other kids locally that also have transport to school? It sounds like a very difficult situation. I'm shocked you didn't win the appeal.