State School Rules for Accepting 3 Year Old?

[saurusy]

Our child turns 3 shortly and we have been set on (and accepted) for a 5 day full time funded place at a local state school that has a mixed pre-school and nursery with 3 and 4 year olds in attendance. Suddenly the school has stated that because of our childs age they will not be able to manage him and recommend that he only attend part time, which will create a number of issues.
Our child is extremely boisterous, loves play, and due to issues which meant that has opportunities to interact with other children to date have been limited, he is extremely over excited when in contact with other children.
Our child is already learning about lots of stuff and loves doing so. We feel that having him in an organised setting rather than one where he just runs around all day (and gets extremely bored doing so after a while without sufficient stimulation) will be beneficial to him.
What are the hard and fast rules? Can a state school refuse the child?

An Education, Health and Care Plan (EHCP), is required for children who have significant and long-term special educational needs.

Taken from Lambeth Council website but I assume it is the same nation wide. His age isn't a long term need.

You have to gather evidence generally over at least 6 months no way would any setting make a judgement on a settling in visit what has his existing nursery said ? You need to find out the EHCP is raised in your son's name with his needs and your voice you are a fundamental part of it so unless existing nursery has gathered evidence there is no basis for an EHCP .....but if the setting does not think they can cope after seeing him for an hour they are not a good setting I wouldn't touch the school.

Mate. This school sounds nuts. It’s not a school place anyway

You seem very confused. It is a pre school. Just because it is in school doesn't make it a school. They do not have to accept any child as it is before compulsory school age.
I highly doubt they are applying for an ehcp.

Sounds like the information has been misinterpreted.

Its a nursery class - they are split by age groups (DT’s started a six months old and moved up through the age rooms until they were 4 and started school). He’s be in a group of similar age children. It’s an early years programme but play based. It gets children use to mixing with other children, following instructions and start on the path to learning.

Agreed, the OP sounds incredibly confused about the whole situation.

Why are you so keen on him being there full time? My kids went to a standard preschool prior to go to school at 4. They only ever went for half days. Half days at preschool are completely normal. Some kids are still having naps at that age. You child may need stimulation, but full time would be too much for any child that was recently 2.

Could it be Inclusion Funding that the school is applying for, rather than an EHCP? This sounds more likely, although still involves a lot of evidence collection and mountains of paperwork, so unlikely to be something you would be unaware of and not done because a child is 'too young'

Our child turns 3 shortly and we have been set on (and accepted) for a 5 day full time funded place at a local state school that has a mixed pre-school and nursery with 3 and 4 year olds in attendance.

Suddenly the school has stated that because of our childs age they will not be able to manage him and recommend that he only attend part time, which will create a number of issues.

I thought three year olds got 30 hours funding. Does that equate to full time or part time?

I suspect the 1:1 is a red herring.

I think you have misunderstood the situation. The school can't just apply for an EHCP if there have been no outside agency help or SEND concerns. They would have to follow the 'graduated response' protocol. This involves referral to the Early Help Team, Health Visitor, Schools and Family Supoort Service, etc first.

In regards to refusing full-time education for FS1, the school can do that if they feel that the supervision levels are not adequate to keep all children safe. FS1 is non-statutory education. They are fulfilling their mandatory duties by offering some provision.

I think you should arrange an appointment with your health visitor and explain the concerns the school have.

the school is concerned of potential injury to other children.

If this is their reason, then it’s nothing to do with his age. Most 3 year olds aren’t a risk to the other children.

There's some fundamental misunderstandings by the OP I feel, as others have tried to explain or establish.

Even if the pre-school applies for an EHCP for this child when (if) he starts in September, it will take a very long time to be completed and approved. I know because I am going through this with my youngest. The pre school have to show that they have tried various adjustments and approaches to manage the learning which are still not sufficient. Many forms need filling out, assessments by various professionals, etc etc. It's a long term process that needs to be based on much more than a child being tall, big and boisterous.

The 30 hours funding is something that you need to sort out yourself @saurusy, the gov.uk site will have info on how to apply for that. It's not down to the pre-school to organise.

Also, there may well be 4 year olds starting in September, but they are not going to be reception aged 4 year olds, they are going to be the ones who have just missed the cut off for starting in reception ie those with birthdays from 1st Sept onwards.

Finally, as it's a pre-school, they have no requirement to accept any child, and can rescind their offer of a place if they choose to.

Perhaps try a childminder or private nursery not attached to a local school.

I think you are correct, this is the funding that is being applied for. Sorry we are not familiar with the terms.

@saurusy posters are saying you are confused, I’d say the school message is confusing. And i suspect this is because they are pussy footing around telling you how they feel about your ds (I’ve had that some teachers too who didn’t dare telling me my ds was badly struggling - parents got aggressive too many times).

So you know you have the funding fir a full time place.
You also know they think he is too young and would need 1-1. (Which means I’m assuming they’ve seen him. Otherwise it doesn’t make sense at all)

Id go and see them. Explain you are confused as to why they think he’d need 1-1. Is there anything they’ve noticed that is worrying?
Approach it with the idea that you’d like to understand, not judge or attack their judgement iyswim.
Explain that needing 1-1 seems to say he’d need a high level of input and you’re not sure why.
Because either they are trying to fob you off with the 1-1 and they are using that as an excuse (and there is little you can do about it) OR your dc has specific needs they have spotted but you didn’t. In which case, the sooner you are looking a5 getting support/diagnosis, the better.

Are you hoping that he will get a Reception place at this school for September 2024? Attendance at the preschool is very unlikely to give any priority in the Admissions process so you could place him elsewhere until then.

No way will he get an EHCP without significant extra needs 🤷‍♀️
So you've got the wrong end of the stick or they are trying to put you off and hoping you apply elsewhere.

Btw, many posters are suggesting private nursery/CM or another preschool.

That MIGHT solve tte childcare issue.

But if there is indeed something going with your ds, moving your child isnt going to help him.
Rather, if they are happy at already looking fur support fur him, it means it’s a good school that is proactive. That’s hitting the jackpot if you have a child with SN.

Go and speak to them and check what’s going in first and foremost.

The school isn't being clear with you.

The problem isn't his age. There will be other summer born children in his class.

The school have met him and believe he has additional needs beyond that which the staff can usually manage in the classroom. They will only be able to cope part time at the moment.

If his additional needs are fairly severe, the school may be able to get an EHCP in place and get extra funding for a 1:1. This means the school believe he has SEN or behavioural needs.

You need to meet with the school SENCO and ask them to be clear and honest with you.

Senco here. I am guessing that the school has met with your DSs early years setting he currently attends and have realised that his needs are very high. They will be able to apply for some Early Years funding to provide additional money for a 1:1 TA, but this would not be full time funding. It’s usually only enough to find someone for a few hours a week. Until this finding is in place, they may well only offer him a couple of hours a day - or even less. If a child was such high need, we would be looking at an hour a day building up to a full half day after a couple of weeks if they settled well.
Unless his early years setting have already begun the process to apply for high needs funding, school won’t start this immediately.

Thanks for all of the input, it is appreciated.
The only behavioural issue that we are aware of that has happened in the last month is for our child to 'push' other children rather than communicate verbally when he wants attention and or others to play with him.
This is the only thing other than his age that has ever been discussed, but is also obviously a phase whilst he develops. Not a long term special needs requirement?

My 2 year old was a pusher/shover in a private nursery setting, it’s a pretty ‘within the realms of normal’ behaviour for a toddler who are developing their communication skills. Said child went to school as normal at just turned 5.

How many times and for how long has the new pre-school seen your child? What kind of setting is your child currently in?

He has been at a playschool 2 days a week for 2 months only. Only reason he doesnt go 5 days is because we can't get him there daily due to work commitments.
The new setting watched him for 30 minutes only, 2 weeks ago. (immediately after his arrival when he is at his most excitable).

If he's only been at his current preschool setting for 2 months two times a week so a grand total of 8 sessions then I think you're bonkers to move him. Poor thing won't know whether he's coming or going.