Private school class sizes going up? AIBU?

[Meepme]

Our class is now at 16, but when my daughter started, it was 10. I'm debating what I'm actually paying for if they keep increasing the classes. AIBU?

Op

Here is the most research on class sizes - going from 10 - 16 will
Have NO affect

At private school, you're paying for the network of rich kids who can help each others careers in the future - not quality of teaching. Private school teachers don't actually require a teaching qualification, so always check your child's school policy carefully.

www.bera.ac.uk/blog/rethinking-class-size-the-complex-story-of-impact-on-teaching-and-learning

OP I'm not sure if you're aware, but there is a teaching recruitment and retention crisis. That doesn't alter if you have the money to send your child to a private school. In fact, keeping class sizes of 10, means that much needed teachers are taken from elsewhere.

I teach in a state secondary school. A comprehensive school with a mixed intake. Our kids are frequently taught by non-specialists because we can't get teachers. Kids with issues such as ADHD / dyslexia etc are now on a huge waiting list, and the surge in mental health issues is dire.

The layers of pastoral care are being stripped away at a time when they are needed more than ever.

This is all down to the lack of funding in education.

So forgive me if I'm less than sympathetic to you wanting a class size of 10 for your child. Please think about the bigger picture.

I also train teachers - I have less than half of my cohort left by the end of this year. (I'm also a hard working single parent)

@sixpencenonethepoorer I wasn't asking for sympathy?? I was asking for people's thoughts.

@Meepme I get that, I do. And of course you are entitled to do whatever you think is right for you and your child.

It's just very hard to read a post like this, when many teachers see daily struggles - your child having a class of 10 would mean teachers were being taken away from an area they are needed, and other people's children would suffer.

It's not a personal attack, even though it might have seemed that way; it's just real frustration. Education is in state of crisis.

Having taught small classes a few times, I found that below 16 children it was difficult to do group work, difficult to do PE with something like needing teams of 5 to play each other and difficult for some children to make friends. I'd say 20-24 is the best number to have in a class.

@Meepme people just can’t help themselves, there’s plenty of threads for people to whinge about private education without derailing this one.

-I think 10 is too small
-our prospectus said max 20 for KS1, we are now at 22. However I guess they want to be financially viable.
-we are at a prep school so class sizes go down as people get into UCS/Habs/Highgate/other fancy schools.

YABU
16 is a decent size
You would consider taking your child out when she is doing well, happy and a good friendship circle?
You need to have a word with yourself

18/19 average at our prep 20-22 at Seniors.

I said I hate the pitting of independent and state school teachers against each other. Not independent and state schools. There's a subtle difference there!

Pupils in private schools do, by and large, get a superior education. Of course they do. Claiming otherwise would be denying reality. It's not just about the quality of teaching, it's the environment they're taught in. Smaller classes full of motivated students, so more personal attention and an environment amongst their peers where learning is valued. Access to external speakers and experts. State of the art facilities. Loads of extra curricular opportunities. Sometimes writers, artists, directors in residence, professional athletes coaching sports and so on. The whole set up is different. The teaching might not always be better - of course rubbish teachers exist in independent schools - but the environment is undoubtedly more conducive to learning. This is why parents pay so much for it.

I didn't slag off the behaviour in state schools, just stated a fact that behaviour management is more challenging in state schools than in private, as class sizes are usually doubled. It's much more challenging to manage the behaviour of 35 kids than it is 16.

I actually share your political viewpoint - I do think that private schools shouldn't need to exist and that all children should have access to the same high quality of state education that the government should be investing in. However, that is unlikely to happen within the span of my working life, and after being nearly broken mentally and physically by my experience of working in state education due to the unbearable work load (working until 1am every night and all weekend to do the marking and planning for 7 classes of 35 English students), I have done the only thing I could do to enable me to stay doing the job I love. We don't all have the luxury of being about to put our morals first when doing so risks our health and wellbeing.

I don't need to give my head a wobble, thanks. I think you need to climb down from your high horse!

'Those of us with the ability to do so' - in terms of those of us who are able to find a suitable job in an independent school where we live.

You've read far more into that phrase than was intended.

I agree with others that 16 is a better number than 10, mainly for social reasons. 10 is so small - the risk of being friendless if a couple of kids left is too great. Also 10 kids must make it very close to not being financially viable. I believe private schools are struggling at the moment, as people can’t afford it. There’s an inevitable drop-off at private schools as parents run out of money. I went to private school and I remember each term some kids just didn’t come back.

Would you accept a fee rise of 25% to keep the class size at 10? 50%?

My DDs attended small village schools for a bit... the year groups varied from 7 kids to 29 kids (just depended on how many kids of each age around, it was normally about 15-18, the 29 kids of the same age was a real anomaly!). They found for most stuff they needed at least 14 kids... pe, art, group projects etc.

I teach at an independent school - secondary- and our class sizes are around 25. Some schools prioritise small classes. I think 16 sounds perfect. Classes that are too small also have disadvantages.

10 could be very intense. 16 is better for finding a wider range of friends.

@HopelessEstateAgents - these days it’s very unusual for an independent school to employ someone without a PGCE that used to happen about 20 years ago. Technically they can if they choose. I’d also challenge your comments about networking and rich kids. Not all independent schools are Harrow and Eton. Mine is a large independent academic city day school. Most of our students have professional parents so doctors, academics etc. The value we offer is in having an excellent, well qualified teaching body and masses of enrichment and support. Of course it’s huge privilege but it’s not quite as you paint it. Independent schools also value older and experienced staff and don’t manage them out.

Our private school the limit was 24, though they tried to keep it at 20. Some years were bigger than others, so you might get three classes of 18 some years and two classes of 24 in another (for example). Ten is a tiny class size de snd I'd wonder if there were enough kids for everyone to find a friend! I wouldn't send my kids to a school that small.

@Meepme My DD went to a top boarding/day girls prep that got loads of scholarships to very well known schools. Our class sizes were 16-20. 48-60 girls in each year. Therefore sport was first class and they had a full programme of matches against other schools. They also had amazing drama and music. With just 10 in a class (how many in the year group?) it’s limiting. How does the school manage the brightest and the below average in one class?

16 is a perfectly reasonable number for teaching and making friends. Class sizes do not make any difference if teaching is good. Your main concern, in any school, should be quality of teaching. It’s the no 1 indicator of a good school and children making great progress. A small class with poor teaching is far less desirable. So stay put and make sure you recognize use good teaching.

@Notellinganyone

Of course, private schools are on a bell curve, like state schools. Some are great, some are awful, most are average. But people need to understand that private education does not automatically equal better teaching, especially as class sizes have been demonstrated to have minimal effect.

I'd argue that being mates with kids of doctors and lawyers is still pretty great social capital, and a significant advantage.

Your school sounds lovely though, I understand not all private schools are Tory factories 😃

The private schools my children went to - are usually 20, although DD's set at school is 16.

That's not been our experience at all. My three have been to 5 different private schools and three state between them and the teaching is far, far better in every single private school they've been to.

All the teachers, bar one have had teaching qualifications and the one that didn't was a sports teacher at primary level.

My DS - now a Yr12 - was in an independent school from Reception-Yr 4. Class size was 16-18. The top independent school at secondary here has class size of 26 or so. Some others have 15-20.

Class size was hyped as a big selling point. But this was on no way a plus for my DS. From Yr3 the TA cover was a person who was basically a sports coach. From Yr5 there would have been no TA. In the state setting my DS thrived, more people to bounce off and - frankly - the curriculum was less stale.

@HopelessEstateAgents

Actually, nobody requires a teaching qualification to teach in either state or independent schools. There is an unqualified teacher pay scale for state teachers and a lot of state schools save money on salaries by employing people to teach who don’t have a PGCE. There’s no law against it and you’d be surprised at the number of technically unqualified teachers there are floating about.

It all depends of course on what you quantify as a qualification. The PGCE isn’t really worth the paper it’s written on in terms of qualifying people to teach. It’s the hands on experience in schools, learning from colleagues, during that year that trains you. Writing a few essays on Vygotsky doesn’t automatically make you a superior teacher to someone who hasn’t got the formal academic qualification of a PGCE. Any of us who have to induct newly qualified teachers can tell you that!

In independent schools there is a more holistic view of what makes someone qualified to teach. If someone has incredible practical or industry experience in their subject, or a PhD, and shows an affinity with young people and teaching, they might be hired without a PGCE but given support in their first year of teaching to ensure they were able to translate their experience and knowledge to the classroom.

There are of course useless teachers in both sectors. Having taught in both I don’t think one set are better teachers than the other - they just often have different strengths and skill sets suited to the differing environments in which they teach.

@HopelessEstateAgents the research on class sizes you link to actually says the complete opposite. Larger class sizes do impact on the quality of education, according to these researchers.

*practice

Education is universal. All Dc can go to school. Some pay so the state is not overburdened - as it would be with no private schools. Some Dc are home schooled. We need a mix of schools and options. We should not be biased.

I’ve used both state and private.Excellent in both. Poor in both. Neither great at improving very quickly. However parents don’t normally choose private purely for class size. It’s for lots of reasons. Certainly networking at nice little preps isn’t one of them!

Also when parents blindly believe private is better and, believe it or not, they totally overlook shortcomings. They have paid and blind faith seems to keep them believing private trumps state in everything. Sometimes it’s great but not always. I’ve been amazed that people with (enough) money are not very discerning. People with lots of money are. By 8, their Dc have moved to the best prep schools! The feeders for top senior schools do offer the best of everything. That’s why parents should be discerning.