Why is 6th form thought of more highly than attending FE college ?

[Summersunshinee]

I can never understand why if you say that you attend 6th form at school you are thought of more so than if you attended FE college.

I would feel that if anything it would be more impressive to attend FE college as you made the decision to go somewhere else and try something different /

It's not people, it really, really is the government. You can blame every single education secretary since 2010 for this. The demand for BTECs is unchanged and there has been an enormous amount of pushback against their abolition from both teachers and parents. The government will say it's brought in T levels instead, but you need GCSEs at a minimum grade 5 including maths and English for those, which puts them out of reach of a lot of the target population for BTECs - the ones who are highly gifted with technical skills but to whom Shakespeare is meaningless. It's absolutely tragic.

I think it goes back further than that @pointythings
I mean there was a time not that long ago when an HND was a really worthwhile qualification, and Colleges of FE and Polytechnics were providing something different to Universities and they were all valued and valuable in different ways.

You only need to have level 4 or do maths and english alongside if you dont have those qualifications, just as they do now with btechs

I think you're right @MrsAvocet in the sense that New Labour's idea of 50% of people going to university didn't help. But if you focus on primary and secondary education, the Tories have a LOT to answer for. There's the Gove reforms, the emphasis on rote learning, the insane pressure of SATs with the 2023 edition as the culmination - we've lost sight of what education is supposed to be.

From what I’ve read T levels are also much more traditionally academic than Btecs. So not suitable for many who currently opt for Btec.

Oh yes, I'm no apologist for Tory education policy pointythings I think that they've done a great deal of damage. And don't get me started on the bloody EBacc. Completely pointless and very detrimental to the teaching of non EBacc qualifying subjects. I'm a scientist myself but I despise the way that the arts and creative subjects have been effectively "downgraded".

@MrsAvocet I so agree with you about the devaluation of the arts! My DC2 (the one who is studying Marine Bio, so STEM) did drama GCSE alongside the usual triple science etc. And that GCSE gave him so much confidence and so many skills in presenting and public speaking it was unreal.

@pointythings Interesting view about Drama.

Are Food technology and Design technology still available at GCSE also ?

@Summersunshinee yes they are as far as I know. The girl who lived with us during her GCSE year (parents had to move because landlord was selling and they couldn't afford anything round our way so the alternative would have been a new school in Yr11! We took her in as a kind of weekly boarder so she could stay at the same school, she was a good friend of DC1) did Food Tech and aced it, and it really helped her career.

All those subjects are still GCSEs @Summersunshinee but government policies are leading to less pupils taking them. One of the metrics that schools are judged on in the League tables is what % of pupils pass the so called English Baccalaureate - maths, english, science, a modern foreign language and either history or geography. As it's a performance indicator, naturally most schools are encouraging, sometimes insisting, that most of their pupils do these subjects. On the surface it doesn't sound too terrible an idea but it's having a negative effect on the subjects that aren't included, which of course are all the practical and creative ones.
Since the new GCSE syllabi came in many schools have reduced the number of subjects their pupils study as they're much more demanding now. So at my children's school they now do 9. Of these, maths, English language, English literature, 3 sciences, a language and either history or geography make up 8, so there is only one absolute free choice. One of mine did music, the other PE. They would both have liked to do DT too, but no space. And it's even worse if you are a pupil who wants to do 2 languages or history and geography because that will use up your last slot, leaving no option for a creative subject. So fewer pupils are doing them, and nobody can do, for example, both music and art, they have to choose one or the other. This leads to small class sizes ( less than 10 out of 180 did GCSE my DS's year group ) which may not be sustainable. When you then add in budget pressures thet schools are under, it's not too hard to imagine where the axe will fall when schools run out of money is it? Our school hasn't dropped any subjects yet, but I know of quite a few others in our area which have stopped offering some GCSEs due to low uptake
I'm a scientist. I do agree that improving the quality of the teaching of STEM subjects in schools is very important, but it shouldn't be causing harm to other subjects in this way. The current policies are badly short changing many of our young people in my opinion, and it is the government I blame, not schools who have little choice in the matter.

Sorry, that should say less than 10 did GCSE music in my DS's year.

I thought that`s what you meant.

That is a sad state of affairs.

Im glad im not at school now. Excuse my ignorance as you state you are a scientist but do we really need to teach 3 sciences ? wouldn't 2 be enough ? thus freeing up another slot ?

Some schools do double science so it's worth 2 GCSEs but covers all 3 subjects in a bit less depth I believe. I don't know much about to be honest but I would imagine it makes the transition to A level a bit harder, though it's obviously possible as some schools only offer double and they do have pupils doing A level. Personally I would probably prefer to see English literature made optional, or have a combined English that is mainly language with a bit of literature for those who aren't really tgat way inclined.

@Summersunshinee I did one year of 6th Form. I took 2 A-Levels, one GCSE and one Btec that was equivalent to a GCSE (I think). The GCSE and the Btec were one year courses. The GCSE I loved and it was 100% coursework which I prefered and got a decent grade. The Btec was quite hard and I can't actually remember if I finished the course. Only a few of us were doing it and we all struggled.
The A-Levels I struggled with. I was no good at independent study and I didn't really understand half of what I was doing.
I then switched to College.
I did a City and Guilds (equivalent to 1 A-Level) and tried again with 2 A-Levels but they were condensed into 1 year.
I again struggled with the A-Levels for pretty much the same reasons I had at school. I failed the A-Levels.
The City and Guilds I did fine in - it was a more modular and practical 'hands on' subject.
Conclusion - coursework, modular and practical based subjects is the way I learned and did well in. I would hate to do GCSEs now because it mostly all exam based.
But which was best for me - 6th Form or College?
I prefered my 6th form because I was more comfortable there. We had tutor groups - and sometimes did fun things as a group like frisbee matches of one tutor group vs another. It was small. We had to stay on the premises even when not in a lesson.
College was much bigger. You didn't have a tutor group - you just had to turn up when your class was on and you could come and go as you wanted. This made me feel quite invisible because often no one would notice (or care) if you were there or not.
So I prefered the 6th Form to the college but subject wise I did better at coursework/practical style learning.
But of course this was 30 years ago and colleges are very different. Many 6th Forms also offer Btec subjects now (and some schools at GCSE level too). It's all very different now.

Our school offered both double and triple science; you had to be offered triple and it didn't get more time in the roster than double so the pace was high. I agree with @MrsAvocet that there needs to be a combined English option, though I do think literature should be kept for those who want it.

My DC both did 10 GCSEs, so had 2 options to pick.

@MrsAvocet Yeah i get your point about English/English lit.

Also if that free`s up a spot it would allow academic students to take a vocational/practical subject, which they would have little aptitude for and allow them to fail in something.

Also the kids who aren't as academic get their chance to shine.

Failure is a good lesson to learn and would help in the long term.

Also if that free`s up a spot it would allow academic students to take a vocational/practical subject, which they would have little aptitude for and interest in and allow them to fail in something.

Or, if you weren't obsessed with forcing everyone to do something vocational irrespective of interest or aptitude, you could allow students a free choice to do something they love. Which is what a decent human being would do.

Honestly, now you're wanting to manipulate the system to force everyone to experience failure. You're beyond help.

@pointythings I know it`s a controversial view.

Also yes people should have the freedom to study what they want.

One possible avenue i think would be Combined English and English lit (x1 gcse), Maths (x1 gcse) and double science (x2 gcse) and the rest something practical/vocational.

For people who want that option.

It's not controversial. It's ridiculous. People have a whole lifetime in which to experience failure, and it's inevitable that they will. No need to bring it into schools.

The idea of a combined English GCSE is a very good one though and needs to be explored. The combo of combined English, functional Maths and double science would be a really good foundation for young people whose talents are practical and is very like the kind of provision that exists in Germany and the Netherlands, where vocational education is properly valued.

But it has to be for those who want it. Forcing young people into subjects they hate benefits nobody.

@pointythings So you see some merit in my idea ?

Also if that free`s up a spot it would allow academic students to take a vocational/practical subject, which they would have little aptitude for and allow them to fail in something.

Are you suggesting students should be made to drop one of the academic subjects they want to do, to make space for a vocational subject they don't want to do and have little aptitude for?! Or are you suggesting it should be their choice?

Either way it's an absurd suggestion. What student is going to deliberately choose a subject they don't like and aren't good at in order to supposedly teach themselves a lesson about failure? No student.

@Fairislefandango Is that any different to someone who is not academic and has to choose something like History, RE (if its still taught in school) or Geography when they have little appetite or aptitude for it ?

@Summersunshinee it was @MrsAvocet who suggested a combined English GCSE, not you. And yes, it is a good idea.

Forcing students to drop an academic GCSE they want in favour of a vocational one they don't just to inflict failure on them is a bad idea. In fact it's a cruel and evil idea.

@Fairislefandango Is that any different to someone who is not academic and has to choose something like History, RE (if its still taught in school) or Geography when they have little appetite or aptitude for it ?

People shouldn't have to do history or geography for GCSE. They are options subjects. My son is very academic and he isn't doing either of them. There should be a range of vocational subjects on offer, which should likewise be options, not compulsory.

@Fairislefandango I`m just putting that as a possible scenario which could well happen depending on location, choice etc.