Is private school worth it?

[sunisbetterthanrain]

Interested to hear thoughts on whether private school is worth it for primary school years? Neither me nor my partner went but are considering it for our daughter. Local schools round here are pretty good, is it just a waste of money that could be better spent on experiences or saving for her future?

I only have one DC, and he started in Reception at a private school, and he loves it. It was definitely worth it for him. The teaching is great and the breadth of the curriculum is staggering. He has had so many wonderful opportunities and there is a wonderfully supportive environment which helps children to thrive.

The teaching is not necessarily any better. In fact if the school has cherry-picked a bunch of "easy" kids, the teachers can become complacent.
There are circumstances where it could be worth it. If the child is an outlier in some way and the school can cater for it. Or if the goal is to get into a selective secondary and the school is known for thorough 11+ preparation. Some privates offer a vast range of sports, music etc. and devote more hours to them, so the experience is a bit broader.
But if the state school is good, with good leadership, and the child is within normal ability range then there is frankly not much point in private, particularly at KS1. "State till 8" has something to be said for it.
At primary, parental/family support is the most important factor in determining progress and outcomes. At secondary, school and peer group play a much bigger role.

soffa · 21/03/2023 17:43I've worked in private & state & think if you can get your dc into one of the best state schools it's the best option. Yes private schools will have more facilities & look nicer but not to justify 20-30k a“

Actually, for sixth form, we found the state College had much better facilities and options than the independent so they went back into state for those years.

My ds was happy in village primary school until year 5 but then they seemed to slow down, go over old ground and he became very bored.

Then all the fuss over stats made him stressed.

He cheered up when he went to senior school.

A bigger private school, yes.

DS went to two private schools from age 3 to 11. Not the whole time. I pulled him from both.

The first, there was no one else in his year, so he was tacked on to the year above (5 children) and that worked really well. He thrived. However, the following year, a girl younger than him started. Plus a boy his age, and they were grouped together. The boy had awful issues, defecated frequently in the class, bit, assaulted, and the school wouldn't get rid because he had 3 elder fee paying brothers who had started as well. So DS and the younger girl left.

We then went local state primary, and the comparison in education and general well roundness was rather apparent. He had friends though.

Second attempt at private, again, due to our location, was the other private school within half an hour. Off to a good start. Class of 7. Of which 3 turned out to be absolute arseholes. And yes, I am calling children that. Never experienced anything like it before or since. It was like this different level of entitled abuse and continual bullying. Teachers and parents almost seemed proud of their elitist bullies, "just healthy banter". DS developed anxiety directly as a result of that school. One of the other boys in his class was mixed race, and the bullying was so severe that the parents brought a law suit against the school.

I know we had terrible luck as both examples are quite extreme. If the biting etc boy had never started at the first school, perhaps he'd have stayed there. Now with young twins, as you have, we have to be sure it's the right call, with simultaneous double fees, and I would only look at somewhere with a class size of 10 and up.

I decided not to send my kids private for a few reasons. Firstly, social - why should the tax payer subsidise school fees by paying the VAT, making it cheaper for parents that are already wealthy? I don't think there is any way my conscience could square that circle. Yes, I know the w word is controversial but if you pay for something that you can get for free, even if you have to tighten your belt, you are wealthy.

Secondly, I am a teacher and I cannot see that there's anything to be gained unless your local school is feral. Teachers in the independent sector accept poorer pay because, quite simply, many of them cannot teach. Yes, they deliver academic information but it is pretty much one size fits all, especially if the kids have to pass an exam to get a place. Many are not qualified teachers and rely on the largely compliant nature of the children. I don't see this as VFM.

My nieces and nephews go to a fairly prestigious school (brother in law earns 280k plus bonus, so go figure) and, to begin with, they were ahead of my kids in measurables such as maths and English, they were even learning French, but this is because they were hothoused and this wears off as progress naturally plateaus. There's nothing sadder than seeing a 7 year old completing masses of homework on a sunny Saturday. The enrichment activities were invasive with the kids having clubs on Friday evening, Saturday afternoon and Sunday mornings. In the long run, my kids did better than their cousins at GCSE and A Level so I'm not sure it was money well spent. I also scratched my head at my rels joining a little parenting club to buy additional tuition for their kids in the run up to exams.

Class sizes are always touted but the maths is revealing. In simple and artificial terms, 1 teacher and 30 kids for 1 hour is 2 minutes per kid. 1 teacher and 12 kids for 1 hour is 2 minutes and 30 seconds per kid. Do larger classes make any difference? They make nervous kids less visible to their classmates. They facilitate healthy discussion. There's always someone in the room who'll help you.

Of my three nephews and nieces, one is resentful that he wasn't allowed to attend school with his mates and play for the local sports teams, he feels he has no social circle. One has had a bit of a shock in terms of the lack of deference from her uni teachers. She has had to learn very quickly that a deadline and associated sanctions happen, something she never experienced at school as the teachers run scared of the parents and are treated as 'staff'. The third is most well adjusted as she is the youngest and her parents are trying to undo their past errors by building a social life with the local kids and limiting her to one weekend club.

It's all horses for courses but, unless it's an elite school, I don't think there's much to be gained by going private.

%100 its worths! - EVERY SINGLE PENNY!

no one can objectively say if private school is worth the money as that’s a value judgement on the cost which will be influenced on how much money you have.

However, @Rsoul UCL and other universities have conducted research on the value-add of private schools and there is an academic benefit for children attending private school that compounds over time even when controlling for ability and socio economic background.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2019/nov/rich-resources-private-schools-give-pupils-educational-advantage

https://www.isc.co.uk/media/3140/16_02_26-cem-durham-university-academic-value-added-research.pdf

If you have the cash, I think it's worth it in terms of forming friendships that will continue into secondary school, prepping for the entrance exam and developing team sports skills such as hockey, cricket, and tennis.

For one research document there's always another: https://www.dur.ac.uk/news/allnews/thoughtleadership/?itemno=25657

Also, The FT made an FOI request to the Russell Group of elite universities in 2021 confirming that, with the exception of Durham, a student from a secondary school is more like likely to be offered a place than from an independent school.

In terms of elite professions, data from Price Waterhouse Coopers suggests that they are dominated by the old schools such as Harrow, Eton, Winchester etc but that the next statistically significant group are state educated Russell Group graduates. Students from bog standard independent schools are often disadvantaged due to the snoobery of the old boys' network.

In short, I don't believe that sending your child to a tier 2 or tier 3 school (annual fees less than 30k) is going to give them a lasting advantage so the choice has to be whether it's the right thing for your child.

The likes of PwC don’t allow you to put your school or your university or your grades anymore when apply for graduate schemes. It’s psychometric tests for the first cull and then how you interview including in group sessions and engage in exercises etc.

I think the decision isn’t about old boys networks at all but rather where you think your children will fully realise their full intellectual potential that will give them the life long skills needed to do well per their lifetime.

Also, the link you posted doesn’t contradict the previous research but reinforced the point that the academic achievement in private schools is higher in private schools like for like for the same ability child.

The article is analysing the fact that state school students slightly outperform private school students with the same A-levels at university (4 percent more upper second class or better degrees though this isn’t really true for those with all As)

Quote:

What causes this difference? It is often said that state schools are less well-resourced – at least compared to the well-known private schools. As a result, the reasoning goes, able students at state schools are less likely to achieve grades that do full justice to their ability while private schools are better placed to help even lower-ability students achieve high grades. However, the truth is that we do not know.

@Rsoul

Our experience of independent school was that it was ultimately a waste of money. However, my feelings on this are very school specific. We chose the school based on the experience of a family member, expecting a nurturing environment. Unfortunately, it was all sport and geared towards low maintenance, compliant kids. We moved our son to a state primary after the pre prep years. Never looked back, he suddenly seemed to turn back into the child from nursery - early reader, happy in school and out. It’s untrue that parents get more say and are listened to more at fee paying schools. Ultimately, any selective school can pick and choose. Our DC was a an academic fish in a sporty pool. They had attainment grades which were basically teacher decisions and based on face fits criteria if that suited them.

I think the point is you will never truly know if sending your child to a private school is worth it or not.

If for example they went to a state school and did well then there is always the argument of "well imagine how much better they could have been if they had gone to a private school ". Or if they didn't do well then would they have done better at a private school.

Or if they went to a private school and didn't do very well then there is the argument that they would have turned out worse if they had gone to a state school. Or if they did well then was this down to the private education or would they have done equally well or better at a state school anyway.

Truth is you will never know.

@mastertomsmum This is exactly why my response to this question is always: Its not state vs private but school Vs school. Money allows you far more choice; you can move or you can pay. Being able to genuinely choose the correct school for your child is a very big privilege and a huge factor in their success.

In Australia the research is clear, academically they offer no advantage once you adjust for socio-economic factors. However we are a different country so perhaps our state schools are better than yours or your private schools are better than ours. Or both.

The only people I know who’ve sent their kids to private school from an early age are either very wealthy, very snobby (but not as wealthy), very pushy or the kids are very badly behaved and the parents think they need more discipline. Not the peer group I’d choose for my kids.

'In Australia the research is clear, academically they offer no advantage once you adjust for socio-economic factors.'

Can you please elaborate or give more details?
@Remaker

@Remaker the same is true largely in the US as Australia. However, the system here in the UK is very different to Australia (where the funding gap is smaller and private schools are partly state funded etc etc) and the US so the international comparison isn’t appropriate

I also agree it’s a school vs school option. There are state schools with huge value add and private schools that are terrible. Some children need and will benefit more from the specific support offered by a specific school more than others. In general if you can afford private school you’ll have the resources to support your child well in any setting. This isn’t the choice for most people between their children doing well or their lives being a disaster!

Absolutely agree with posters who say it depends on the school not whether it’s state or independent. It’s also finding a fit for your child, if you can afford/have that choice. The primary our DC went to after the private had a ‘Good’ Ofsted and a great Head. After she left the Ofsted slipped but nothing had actually changed at the school and it went back up in due course. Ofsted is no true guide

Depends on the child. For academic children it's probably amazing for children that aren't it's probably a daily nightmare

60/12 = 5 mins

@Rsoul hope you’re not a math teacher!

Imho the answer to the quoted 4% difference in favour of state schooled kids at university lies in the fact that an overwhelming number of pupils at independents are offsprings of parents with university degrees.

University degree holders know that grades matter somewhat at primary, they are truly decisive at GCSE and A-levels, but decent is enough at uni as it is really rare for an employer to ask for your university grades - unless you’re into an academic career.

Second+ gen will know this wisdom from their parents, and they will keep a wider perspective throughout university including networking, work experience, etc. First gen (proxy 4%) will do what they have always done and derive their self worth from the grades awarded imho.

Scenario 1: excellent school academically and pastorally and the fess for all the children in the family will not be a problem until the end of 6th form. Absolutely and without hesitation.

Scenario 2: Not a brilliant school, DC not massively academic - plenty of money. Absolutely and without hesitation.

Scenario 3: Lack of holidays, ancient car, constant worrying - it doesn't matter how good the school or clever the children - it's tough and fosters resentment.

Scenario 4: Can't do it for all the dc or can't do it all the way through. No way - recipe for disaster.

Fact 1: when ds went aged 8, the fees were a shade under 8k. When he left aged 18, the fees were about £19k. When both DC were in the senior schools the fees were £36k.

Fact 2: if you have to worry about the extras (probably 12%ish overall with occasional trips thrown in) then you can't afford it and it will be a strain.