Large class sizes Vs combined age groups

[hughiebooey]

We are sending our DC to the local state school and cannot decide which might be best.

Option A
Primary school based within a town, 340 children, approx 30-32 per class. It seems there are usually 1 teacher and 2 assistants for that number. There (seemed) to be lots more going on within those schools, I guess because of the number of children, but DD is very shy and lacks confidence so I wonder whether she will be overlooked in a large class like that.

Option B
Country school (we live rurally). It is a very home-from-home feel. 97 children in total. As such, they combine age groups, so reception and year one together; years 2 and 3 together etc. Again seems lovely but unsure of a smaller, country school, but as above, given DD's personality I wonder whether this would suit her better? I get the feeling a lot of middle class families send their kids here. I know 2x doctors and a vet that send their children plus the percentage on free school meals is low. I asked the headmistress when we spoke whether the combined years means the older lot are held back etc, she said they almost disregard the age and teach them based on ability. If they are easily mastering the easier work then they can do what the older lot are doing etc.

I intend to put them into a private secondary schooling.

Any help gratefully received as I am really, really torn!

With ds we went for A.

It was a 600 roll school, with a mix of children, probably 60% FSM. We were sold by the outstanding headmaster and the culture and pastoral care in the school. Even with so many kids the headmaster and deputy head knew every single child by name. We also felt bigger classes with a larger friendship pool would be more important and prepare them better prepare him for the secondary school environment. Being a local school it also meant friends would also be local.

Also the village school we were considering (only 2 miles in the opposite direction, our housing estate is just on the outskirts of it) had a reputation of the parents residing in the village being a bit cliquey even though the school was very keen to attract more pupils to keep them afloat!

We were grateful a few times for the larger friendship possibilities and initially shy ds flourished there and then in secondary.

Interested in the responses as we had exactly the same decision to make. We went for the bigger one, but doesn't start until September and I keep second guessing our decision!

B every time.

Teacher pupil ratio is much more important than age imposed teaching.

Combined age groups are no problem, IMO bigger schools are socially much better.

It depends on your kid/preferences, mine got great outcomes in big classes/schools, I would never have wanted to send mine to a small school with a tiny social circle.

Class sizes have no impact on pupil outcomes btw I suspect mixed age might - also as some said v small school can be difficult socially

From your other thread, this would be an in-year application- are there spaces at both? Now? They will not give you a space now to hold for next term/sept.

I would go A, as the funding for B may well be a serious issue; schools are funded largely per pupil, and a school with that few may well have some serious budgeting issues. Smaller schools tend to struggle more. One class per year is still a small school.

Are there any other local schools? Your local authority will find you a place if these are both full.

This is not true, what evidence base are you working from?

Ok extremely limited impact and v v expensive see EEF highly respected education charity reviewed 45 studies educationendowmentfoundation.org.uk/education-evidence/teaching-learning-toolkit/reducing-class-size

Also - are the class sizes in the smaller school that much smaller? They are still likely to be 25ish per class; anything less would be hard to fund as the funding is based on the idea of 30 per class. So it may not make any difference, in terms of attention, especially if school a also manages to have 1-2 assistants per class.

How are classes altogether both organised exactly?

340 is a bit of an odd number... thats 48 per year presuming 7 years. So is it 1.5 classes per year?
And how to they split the classes in the smaller school?

You sound rather snooty about recipients of free school meals. How exactly do you think they will impact on your precious child?

I'd also be considering facilities, head and teachers too. What's the point of being in a small class if there teaching is poor, facilities lacking and school falling apart?

I went to school in the 80's. State school. Facility wise it had a music room, cookery room, gym (with all the climbing bars and benches), assembly hall with stage, separate canteen, decent outdoor playground. I lived in a moderate sized town, the other schools had similar facilities. Fast forward to 2022. DS is in a small town school (it was this or nothing), it's falling apart, he does everything in the one 'class room.' There are no facilities other than a very small playground. I'm a parent governor so have a good insight into budgeting issues. It really hit home how schools have been utterly starved by progressive governments of funding.

B every single time.
My 3 children all went to smaller school than that. All educated to degree level and above now.
They will get the opportunity to participate in every thing. Not be competing against 50 odd other kids in their age group. Sports, plays, assembly etc. However splitting year groups eg year 1 and half of year 2 in one class then the rest of year 2 and year 3 in another class I'm not a fan of.

We went with B. Worst decision I'd made.
I moved her to A in year 2!

I'd pick option B for the smaller class sizes. Half form entry would be my limit though, wouldn't want to go smaller.

Option A being a school of 340, should be 11 classes? How is that divided up?

B - DC are at a smaller school than this & thriving. DD is in Yr3 but working at/alongside Yr4s. Great school community & opportunities to participate in everything.

I would go for the bigger school. It will be more financially stable. Small schools are really struggling. You will see more and more shared heads, sencos and office staff which is fine when things go well but less so if there is an issue. Small schools also mean subject leaders have several subjects to lead and develop to the same standard as big schools where they only get one. Is that reslly posdible? Vertical teaching can work well but some classes are across key stages and its quite difficult to manage so you need very strong teachers. Eyfs and year 1 is really challenging apparently.

Yeah it is true in fact, @Selfesteem22 is absolutely right. All the pedagogical evidence is that small class sizes have very little impact. Certainly far, far less than parents in general think.

The biggest factor by some margin is the quality of the teaching – children of all ages do better in big classes with a great teacher than they do in small classes with a poor one.

The biggest factor by some margin is the quality of the teaching – children of all ages do better in big classes with a great teacher than they do in small classes with a poor one.

This is worth considering. Especially for school B, as there's a chance the teacher will remain the same for the 2 years.

I'm another who would choose school A.

My kids went to B. It was a lovely little school, really homely feel, all the teachers knew the names of all the kids. The mixed aged classes worked fine. It was our catchment school so my kids had loads of local friends. The only down side is, as others have said, the funding. Economies of scale mean that small schools suffer more from cuts than larger schools. That said, 97 is a decent number, so they'll have a decent amount of money. Ours went down to 70-something.

Which school did you prefer OP, when you were walking round? Was there one you felt would suit your DC better?

Just to say, not all small schools are in dire financial circumstances btw, just as I'm sure there are some bigger schools with financial problems.

We went for a big school. We’ve found that they blend across the year so that means that the DC work with other children at the same level for maths and phonics. Also means there’s lots of team sports etc and specialist music, PE and language teachers in KS2.

A. The friendship groups are too limited in a school of 90 kids.
You need to consider the 11 year old they will become, and not the the 4 year old they are currently.

I wouldn't focus on the class sizes (which I doubt will be much different in practice- schools can't afford to have very small classes) but on other differences. The main difference here is larger school (but still not a very large school - not even 2 classes in each year) or small school.

Large school means more resources and more opportunities to find friends.
Small school may be more nurturing in early years but will be more limited in what it can offer. It might be great at infants age, but will your child have outgrown it by junior age?

As a PP says, if you're looking for an in-year place, your favourite may be irrelevant - you'll have to go where there are spaces.

You can get a feel for school finances on the schools financial benchmarking service website. Its a .gov.uk one. It show money in, money out, any in-year deficit and any reserves covering that defict. It will be for 2021-2022 but it gives an idea. Obviously lots of costs have gone up like salaries, contracts and supplied. Funding not so much - but you wont see if they have got structural changes in the pipeline to reduce costs.