Should PTA pay for staff training and not be told what the training will be?

[soweneo]

There was a really difficult PTA meeting for our local primary this week. The primary is headed by a very unpopular head and pupil and staff numbers have dropped by about a third in 5 years. Add this in to general decreasing budgets and the school must be very strapped.

The school have now asked the PTA for funding for 'essential staff training' and when some of the PTA asked for clarification the school admin assistant (the only member of staff who came to the meeting) said they can't clarify.

They have also asked for stationary costs, and when a member of the PTA asked if parents could do an amazon or similar wish list instead the school have said that they want a 'pot of money' for stationery instead.

The parents who have been in the PTA for a longer time and used to fundraise for enrichment projects and school trips, science weeks etc feel these requests go against the PTA's aims as listed on the website.

Some of the younger parents, new to fundraising, feel more comfortable about it.

I feel this is more of a leadership issue that needs addressing, but perhaps I am wrong? Whatever it is, the PTA is split down the middle.
The school had already asked for a £10 donation at the beginning of the school year for stationery.

It's not the school's money, and anything that did not come with a decent case for it would get a "no"

We wouldn't fund 'essential' staff training, but might be sympathetic towards a training that was allied to additional/enrichment activity or to fund the difference between what they can afford to do v what they really want to do (provided the 'extra' has a good reasons allied to PTA aims.

We are quite likely to fund additional stationery, if they mean things like art supplies or special project materials.

No way would we just provide a general pot of money, we want the actual invoices

As pp's have said look at your constitution which sets out your purpose as a PTA. If you are affiliated to Parentkind (we are and have our insurance through them) they have governance docs for PTA's.

We're also a registered charity and those of us who are registered as trustees with the charity commission have personal responsibility for ensuring money is spent according to our constitution.

You absolutely can push back and say you need a proper written proposal as pp's have said.

If you're not affiliated to Parentkind I'd recommend you join asap it really will help you xx

Charity commission produce guidance for trustees which you could share with all parents and the staff.

I think there are guidance/info for PTAs on Parentkind as well which you could send out as well.

So sorry people have got upset it's awful when you work really hard & people come in and have a go. Xx

@Paq she really came across as a bully at that meeting.

I'm Chair of our primary school PTA & no, we wouldn't fund staff training unless under very specific circumstances, & certainly not without being told what it was.
We actually allow our class teachers (there's only 3 classes) a discretionary £100 fund per year for incidentals like odd bits of stationery, displays etc but wouldn't expect to be asked for general stationery.
We also don't pay anything out until we have receipts, so the school pays first & we reimburse them.
And those new parents are definitely wrong & really the Chair should have stopped the meeting & made that clear, as well as saying that behaviour is totally unacceptable & inappropriate!
It sounds like the new members need to be informed of exactly what the PTA does, is for, it's full constitution & legalities.

It would have been a no from me, I was the secretary at ours.

I'd write a factual letter to your chair ptfa, stating why you object and ask for it to me read at the next meeting. Then resign if they ignore it

This is not normal for PTA.

Ours funds school trips (seaside, panto) and little extras like ice creams. They have also contributed to laptops, and some equipment/toys for a new-build pre-school on the premises.

I do not think it is appropriate for PTA to be funding staff training especially if they do not know any detail. There are many grants available for staff courses and the primary where I am governor applies for these all the time and has been very successful.

I think your newer parents need to learn there's a difference between "important to the school" and "should be funded by the PTA"

It's not meant to be a way to plug holes in the general budget, nor should any funds be handed over without an adequate business case (which at least explains why it should be outwith the school's actual budget) and invoices

I've been chair, secretary and treasurer over the years.
No way would I have OKed giving money to the school for staff training let alone 'unspecified' training.
PTA funds are not a slush fund for a HT to direct use of and dip into when they don't balance their own budgets. They are usually for extras to enhance the children's experience.

So the treasurer of the PTA said in the meeting that they felt school should be accountable by providing a plan of spending on training (all the written request said was 'training costs - £2500) and she also said she felt we should get receipts.
The bully member said ' its their money not ours and they are not accountable to us on what they spend the money on.' (they being the school) then she said 'PTA could be reported to the charity commission if we don't give them what they want'

The bully member was talking rubbish.

1. It's the PTA's money not the schools
2. The PTA could be reported to the charity commission for misspending the money if they hand it over without due care and attention, not for disagreeing with the HT.

Did the treasurer or Chair correct them on their error about the charity commission?

@JustLyra no - they were totally unprepared and started questioning themselves that maybe they had it wrong. They are the loveliest people and felt totally ambused - one of them ended the meeting in tears.

If it was the schools money, they would have direct access to it and wouldn't need to ask permission for it.

The new parent's seem to have joined for their own agenda and not in the interests of the PTA

Yeah, that new member is talking utter crap! Are they the one delivering the 'training'? Or are they very close to the Head?
They seem to be confusing the PTA with the Governors!

Where was your Chair in all this? Why didn't they bring the meeting to order?

The PTA is an entity separate to and independent of the school. Technically, the PTA could dictate how money is spent in school but obviously it is more beneficial to the children if you work in partnership with the school to decide how to spend money/ what to fundraise for but the school has no right to dictate how money is spent and the trustees of your charity have a legal obligation to adhere to the objectives of your charity. I doubt staff training is included in that and if anything the PFA could be reported to the Charities Commission FOR "giving them want they want"

First question to ask in this situation, if you were audited could you confidently report on what the money was spent on.

If no then don't approve it.

Thank you so much @AlisonDonut @TwigTheWonderKid @APurpleSquirrel @iRun2eatCake and all the other posters.
Right - I am going to put my big girl pants on and write an email to the bully parent and ask her to point out where in the constitution it says that school should have no questions asked access to the money and on what grounds she thinks PTA could be reported to charity commission. Will let you know what she says!
@APurpleSquirrel The chair felt totally ambushed. She is a very good friend of mine and I am so cross she was treated like this.

@AlisonDonut I have just spoken to the treasurer and suggested we updated our PTA terms to school to say that 'we have updated methods of doing accounts and will need receipts for all spending for auditing purposes.'
BUT she says that 2 of the trustees are 'new' parents and might not agree as they think we are being tricky. What should we do in that case?

Tbh @soweneo it would be better coming from the Chair.
To me it would be best for the Chair to
a) contact the bully parent privately stating that their behaviour was inappropriate & cannot happen again, &
b) a general communication to go out to the entire committee reiterating what the aims & objectives of the PTA are, including what is written in the constitution, & how misuse of PTA funds is illegal. That the PTA is a separate CHARITY from the school & they cannot dictate what PTA funds are spent on, & all spending must be agreed by the PTA with full transparency and/or receipts.
I'm sorry that your Chair was so badly affected, but ultimately that the role of Chair is to chair & run/manage the meetings & committee. It does sound like your new parents really don't understood what the PTA is/does & this all needs to be clarified before your next meeting.

I would ask for clarification again.

If you don't get it wrote to the governors expressing concern the PTA is being asked to fund essentials.

Here is some useful info that should be shared with your new trustees:

www.gov.uk/government/publications/charity-trustee-welcome-pack/charity-trustee-welcome-pack#get-to-know-your-charity

www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/4628488-primary-school-asking-for-30p-per-meal-for-ks1-free-meals-and-asking-pta-for-money-for-training-teachers