Private school fees

[muffinhead4]

I have been try to work out if we can afford private school fees for our 2 children in the next few years but after doing sums we could barely manage 1 let alone 2 😔
Before tax we earn approx £100K which is most definitely not enough, this got me thinking how do parents pay for private school for more than 1 child? Am I missing a trick? I know some grandparents help but those that pay them selves how do you do it? What kind of jobs? I am in finance and DH is in training, neither very high up.

Anyway the system is as it is. It won't change in my lifetime. England loves a class system

. I thin that education is a fundamental human right, and that the same level of education should be available to every child.

But the current class system dictates - that only wealthy children can get a good education. Maybe it will change in the next generation.

I find it very strange - all the denials , that rich people look down on poor people. Are you in denial?

Not in denial as such but I haven't seen it happen amongst any of my family and friends.

We're probably in the top 5% wealth-wise. My brother is at the other end and works his arse off in a warehouse in crap working conditions for minimum wage.

We absolutely don't look down on him, in fact, we have a lot of respect for him for working as hard as he does for a much lower financial reward. Same for my kids who appreciate that he's worked two hours to give them their £20 Amazon voucher.

I'd agree that most of our friends are probably of a similar wealth to us. But not all and, again, I couldn't care less whether they're (using your words) rich or poor because that's not how I evaluate our friendship.

Agree like goes to like. Our state educated dds all their friends and their families are “like us” so not kidding myself it’s that mixed!

Agree if the state option were suboptimal that’s different. We bought our house here because of the good state schools was our main driver on leaving London.

Poor chap in next office to me (partner in City law firm) dropped dead of heart attack aged 45 - big stressful job 3 kids in private school sahm wife he was stressed to hell.

I find it very strange - all the denials , that rich people look down on poor people. Are you in denial?

SOME rich people definitely look down on poor people and consider themselves to be superior. Pretty much all those I and DH have encountered do not have that attitude (despite DH having spent his entire career interacting with them and not being from a background remotely similar to theirs). So I find it impossible to believe that all the rich people you have encountered have this attitude without it being provoked by you.

I’m sure some rich people look down on poor people.
However, my DC are at Private school and from what they tell me this attitude is really “not cool”. I don’t know if I would consider myself rich but I don’t look down on anyone based on how much money they have or don’t have. I have mixed with very very wealthy people (landed gentry as well as more self made) and I have never encountered this attitude

I find it very strange - all the denials , that rich people look down on poor people. Are you in denial? The whole premise of a class system - is that rich people look down on poor people. Especially in our younger years. When I was in school - the rich kids all hung around together. What your father di really mattered. If you were rich you were popular, if you were poor you weren't.

How can you deny this happens? It is insidious.

I didn't go to private school @Mooshamoo, and there weren't many rich kids there, and if there were it wasn't obvious. A significant number of pupils at my school lived on the huge council estate at the top of the hill. If anything I was the "posh kid" (no money, but lived in a nice area). I had the mickey taken out of the way I spoke because I didn't sound like someone out of the cast of Eastenders (I grew up in South London). And I certainly didn't look down on the kids from the council estate.

If this was your experience of private education it doesn't do privately educated kids many favours

I also agree that many well-off families on well-over £100k decide that private schooling just isn’t affordable full stop, or not affordable in a way that means things they value can also continue….and opt for good state schools.

Many realise private is unaffordable and move to the catchments of excellent state schools. As someone up thread said, these houses are costly but you can get a mortgage for house purchase and you know your property will increase in value over the long term. Consequently, many of the families attending the sought-after state schools, whether they are Comps or grammars value education just as much as those who are paying. Many of those kids do lots of extra curriculars which can be funded due to no school fees, and as some point out can be more targeted to the individual child than perhaps the private school extra curricular offer which is extremely broad and which parents paying fees are indirectly paying for, although their specific kids might not be especially benefitting from.

It will never be possible to compare what outcomes would have been in one type of school compared to another because an individual child themselves is different to others, and can only have 1 education, but certainly lots in state schools are perfectly happy with the outcomes…..although it should be pointed out that lots aren’t entirely satisfied either…..but that could be said of predicate schools too.

What is does emphasise again, is just how high the incomes need to be to pay for full-fees places in senior schools, especially in LOndon and the South-East. When those earning £250k feel they can’t afford it, it indicates what many families must be earning above. We are talking figures well beyond the £100k level that most would consider to be the extremely affluent. Yes, there are some who have been more frugal and afford it on slightly smaller incomes, those who have accepted big sacrifices in other areas of life, or had help from grandparents or inheritance, or the few who receive a significant bursary which leaves only small amounts of fees to be paid…..but it remains that large proportions of the parent body are on BIG incomes, and increasingly private education is available to a tiny fraction of society in areas like LOndon and the south east.

Given that house prices have risen dramatically in recent years (in the areas where I've lived in London, they've doubled in roughly 10 years), that's going to mean fewer people can afford school fees, surely? So how do we think that will affect private schools? If the people who could afford fees if they'd have bought a house 10 years ago, now can't because they're paying massive mortgages instead, is there enough demand for private school places from those who can still afford them? With that and a shrinking school age population in general in London, what's going to happen to the schools?

There will probably be some closures or mergers. Smaller schools and especially Preps and single sex schools are more vulnerable. However, there remains a strong market and enough people to fill a large number of places, so schools that have robust numbers and are successful will do well. International students are also available to fill some places.

Areas outside LOndon and SE are likely to struggle. In those areas, places are less hotly contested anyway and incomes tend to be lower, so it is often in these other areas that schools struggle and close. I’m sure there are still too many small Preps in LOndon and other small schools too. The market probably needs to concentrate down into a smaller number of slightly larger schools. The schools that have tended to close over the last 15 years, or been merged In others have often been Preps or girls’ schools.

I guess over time, it will become even more of a luxury product, for the extremely extremely rich and families from abroad. However, people still value it enormously and the schools won’t want to price their entire market out, so some serious looking at ways to keep costs down will be required in lots of quarters.

Just my thoughts….I wait to see like everyone else.

In the farming world there's a few things that happen.

1. the school fee years are known as a decade when there'll be no investment in the farm. Then you have 20 odd years to rectify that before the next batch.
2. the older generations work a lot longer. My dd is 74 and pulls a 70 hour week during harvest. My father in law is 86 and still does jobs on the farm we'd have to pay someone else to do if he didn't do them.
3. we don't have fancy holidays. Some kids have cruises and long haul trips 3 x a year. We don't and are happy with that. Some of said v b rich kids have had fabulous fun filled nights away in our caravan that they have told us is more fun than their posh hotels. Either their manners are impeccable or they had more fun - either way they're good kids!!

Id love to quiz our year group as to where the funds come from. Most you can guess - own a local business, GP's who are partners in their practice. Lots and lots of teachers kids (70% discount at our school!). A fair few families with two parents with cracking jobs who've clearly prioritised private school over house/second child etc. some with posh grannies who do the school run and who also went to the school so they guess is they pay a chunk. Lots of military. Although the Americans get a bit unstuck as their package only covers two kids and a lot have 4!

But there's a good number I have no idea how they pay!

State schools here are full of doctors and lawyers kids. Without family money paying for more than one child is going to hurt so we …don’t. .

Anecdotally friends who have gone private are weirdly obsessed with other peoples money - people are literally described in terms of how wealthy they are. I got shades of that from wombats post. The middle class professionals we are friends with who all state educate never mention this.

MsTSwift - I’ve never known parents in real life to talk about the money of others - that would be considered crass.

This though, is an anonymous thread and it is about school fees and affording school fees, so it’s rather difficult to have the conversation without talking about income or wealth. Quite simply, as a broad category, those with a couple of kids in independent schools, especially senior schools in the south east, have extremely large incomes in order to be able to afford it, if they also have the usual trappings of larger houses. Whilst some are on bursaries or have lived very frugally or have another source of income, the majority have much larger incomes than the original poster who was asking the question.

I think is just a known amongst parents at independent schools and largely taken as a given - but not something that needs discussing or would usually be considered appropriate. Perhaps behind closed doors, a couple of close friends might comment on really unusual wealth, but it wouldn’t be considered usual playground chat.

I think the key point being raised by this thread, is that many outside the world of private education don’t realise the level of income needed to afford it. People earning average household amounts might imagine a household income of £100k to be very high (which it is) and that independent education would be accessible - which it is unlikely to be for a couple of kids, especially at senior level in the London area. As others have said, even £200k or £300k doesn’t feel enough for people to feel they can afford it out of post-tax income. It’s this which explains why more and more well-paid professionals who value education a lot are looking at state schools, when a generation ago, orivate schooling would have been in the cards for them.

Absolutely agree. The majority of our friends were privately educated themselves but hardly any are privately educating their own children despite decent mid range jobs (doctors /lawyers (not City though) /estate agent /publishing /small businesses). One family did go private couldn’t really afford it practically bankrupted themselves and had to sell their house. Everyone thinks they are bonkers especially as one of their dc didn’t even enjoy it.

We could (and do) live off my DH income c£150k gross. I run my own company so take up to £50k paying about £3,500k tax. A combo of tax free allowance and dividends. That pays our school fees as they’re about £27k net. We get occasional cash gifts from our parents (£1-2k a year) and put it towards fees. I’m not sure what a £47k net salary is grossed up? But that’s our income. We have a 5 year old car we own outright a very modest house 4 bed semi / in a nice area with a low mortgage.

@ShockedConfused1980 I’d say you are fairly typical. £200k-£300k household income is where most private school parent fall. A nice 4 bed house but not a mansion and a couple of international holidays a year. There are definitely some with more and also less.

£100k is too little with two kids in London but it’s also not £500k either.

We went the opposite route. Instead of staying in the City and going private with those salaries we moved to a beautiful city in the south west halved our salaries (gulp) and moved near good state schools. Work to live not live to work. Our London hours were brutal. Horses for courses but it’s turned out very well!

No family money for either of us sadly!

We are in the Midlands so our school fees are less. Our prep is a little more expensive than others in the area but we think worth it.

Our joint income varies a lot but has been £300-600k in the past few years. We have one dd who has just started at prep school and we plan to send our younger dd there. I don't think we would have considered private school if our incomes were below £150k - it would have made more sense financially to move to the catchment of excellent state schools. For us, the prep offers more of the things we value than the best state primary we could have moved near - class sizes of 10 in reception (with full time TA), sport every day, excellent language teaching, creative arts and extracurricular activities, and of course prep for 11+. It's also nice not to worry about ferrying them around to after-school activities or exam tuition. Fees are £17k a year and we pay for uniform and after-school clubs on top but most other costs are included, including lunch and day trips. We are in central London. Looking at the senior day schools where DD would most likely go, they are about £23k a year although I'm aware they will be far higher by the time she goes.

We don't have any help from grandparents or inheritance - everything is paid for out of income, although we have significant assets which we don't touch but help us feel secure (saved from earned income and grown through shrewd investments). Most parents we've met at the school so far seem to work in law or finance, but there's a wide range of jobs (but all very senior). We only live in a small flat right now which is mortgage-free but upsizing to a 4 bed terraced house with a hefty mortgage soon. Hardly anyone drives to school so I have no idea what cars they own (we don't own one at all and take the tube). There are bursaries although I don't know anything about them, and we've used the second hand uniform sale although we could afford to pay for new, but I don't feel there's any need to.

We feel we can comfortably afford the fees without much impact on our lifestyle. We have overseas holidays (but not luxury resorts and mostly short haul), pay for whatever days out we like (lots of family theatre and concerts, theme parks), pay for any extracurricular activities the dds like, buy clothes and treats when we want to (which isn't that often), we don't budget with everyday spending but we're not really big spenders. No state grammars nearby and I enjoy our city lifestyle too much to move out to the outer zones to live near any of the London grammars (and I'd never want the dds to do a long commute to travel to them).

In our London borough, almost 40% of secondary-aged children go to private school so it's not a small minority. But it's a borough with some of the most expensive properties in the country (although it also has a lot of deprivation too).

Yes I think that’s the income level you would need to privately educate more than one child. Any less than that would make me nervous! Big commitment.

Yes not many of the same professions can afford it now

Demand is still very high where I am but a different level now to afford it

I think demographically those that go private is changing. Average doctors / lawyers can’t afford it anymore. It’s very high earners / bankers / finance those with family money and overseas students - anecdotally what I see anyway. All the GPs and solicitors kids are at the local state schools here.

Definitely

We use both and state has loads of professions who in the past may have used private, private is a different situation especially with multiple dc, and at secondary level

Hence why their results have gone up! Poor school more pushy parents to deal with! Dds single sex state now has better results than the local girls private