Would you pay for private education when there is a very good state alternative?

[alfiesbabe]

I know this is a contentious issue, but am really interested to hear other people's views. Our situation: have just moved DS (Yr 9)from private to local state school. (His choice). He had been on a scholarship as a chorister, and finished in the choir, but money wasn't an issue as DH teaches in the private school so we paid peanuts for fees. DS is really happy and likes the wider range of students. He is in top sets for most subjects and reports back that the work is more challenging and behaviour better than was the case in his previous class. He gets less homework, but to my mind what he does get is more relevant (eg in maths he might get set 5 questions to test that he has understood a teaching point, whereas at the private school he'd be set several pages of the same type of question). Results wise, the private school had 85% 5 A-C passes, the state school had 72%. Bearing in mind the state school has the full ability range, whereas the private school is selective, this smacks to me of better teaching in the state school. It seems like a very small difference considering parents are paying about 12K a year for the private school. A-level results are similar - statistically the private school is a little better, but not by much. The private school offers more in the way of music and sport; but DS has gone as far as he wants with music for the moment and isnt bothered about sport. I'm not looking for validation of our choice - we know we've made the right decision - but I'm left with this feeling of 'What were we actually paying school fees for?' The experience as a chorister was valuable, but I can't get my head round parents who pay the full whack, specially if their child isnt musical or sporty. I'm aware that our local state school is outstanding and we're very lucky in this respect. So.... why WOULD anyone pay for private in this situation?

The key words are "in this situation". Many of us paying for private education find many different justifications for doing so. In our case - 3 at school and one at nursery - the state schools within a feasible radius have results which come nowhere near the private schools' results, even given a similar cohort of abilities, when comparing the sectors. And that's before facilities and extracurricular activities are taken into account.

Snobbery for me and many other privately paying families isn't an issue; our dcs's schools are in any event not filled with honking Sloans. Dh and i are both 100% state educated, but wanted and are in a position to give a different experience to our dcs.

But not everyone of course will be in your position, where you have what sounds to be a comparable if not superior FREE education as an option.

No doubt if we lived in certain parts of Bucks or Cheshire for example we wouldn't need to be shelling out £££ of already taxed income, but we don't, so we are !

I agree miobombino - as I say, we know we are fortunate with our local state school. DH and I are both state educated (not great schools in our case but we both did fine). I teach in a state school, DH taught in state for 15 years before his current job and has a promotion back into the state sector for sept. I can see that when you aren't faced with good alternatives, you may feel pushed into having to pay. What I'm intrigued by, is the people who DO have a good or outstanding alternative and still pay. Paticularly if anyone has older children who have gone right through the system - do you feel you could have saved your money, or did you feel you got a good deal? Or did you feel you got a slightly better deal but still not worth it - cos to my mind 12 k per child per year is a hell of a lot of money! If we hadnt got a huge discount, I'd be asking for a refund

It really depends on your alternatives to private, your own circumstances and your child's/childrens' needs doesn't it?

We have an outstanding state primary on our doorstep so we use that. Results are comparable to the private schools so we have no concerns on the academic front.

It also has a strong tradition of both sport and music. Regardless of this, we are in a position where we can pay for private lessons and, because I am self employed and work from home, I am able to take them to any activities that they want to do outside of school hours. So the boys have one to one swimming lessons, football coaching twice a week and they also have Spanish lessons.

My employment circumstances also mean that I collect the boys from school and take them home (if not going to activities) so it's easy for me to do homework with them and give extra 'tutition', for want of a better word, where it's needed.

The boys are happy at school and doing exceptionally well (both school age boys are at the top of their classes).

Therefore, there is no justification, in my mind, for us paying for private education at this stage.

If things were different then it might be something I'd consider.

Ah, thread has moved on while I typed my irrelevant ramble!

I wouldn't pay for private education even if I had the means to, just because I passionately believe that good state education should be available to all and I couldn't square it with my socialist leanings either.
However, where I live we do have the luxury of good schools and we don't have to fight to get in them. And my eldest is doing very well at Upper School at the moment, although we obviously have to play our part in encouraging him to want to learn.
I do personally think the choice thing is a load of bollocks tbh, it's not choice, just if you're clever, with enough money or smarts to play the system then you'll get a school that you want. Which is ludicrous, much better to bring all schools up to standard and then you don't get a choice, you just have to go to your local school or private. Of course that would never happen.

Agree with OP, DD1 went on a scholarship to a good private school: DD2 got the same scholarship but we chose instead to send her to our local state school. Lots of things I didn't like about the private school (though it was a very good one) - its religious ethos, the cliqueynesss, Saturday school, Sunday Chapel... the helicopter pad for richer parents, the strange other-worldliness of the place... the unthinking snobbery, the huge emphasis on prayer and sport..

I know we're lucky to have the option of an excellent state school, but I'm absolutely happy we made that choice second time around. The teaching and discipline were superb and the facilities fine - the private school's were better, for sure, but a great swimming pool and wonderful gym equipment isn't everything by any means.

The only way the private school scored better overall was in Music. DD2 just didn't get the same opportunities at the state grammar in the same way she would have at the private school, which encouraged regular practice, performances and had lots of ensembles, orchestras of every standard, etc. But again, music's not everything and if you're really keen/talented you can find opportunities outside school.

Oenophile - that's interesting - your experience seems to be similar. I think your phrase 'unthinking snobbery' is a good one. I didn't come across much overt snobbery at ds's private school - ok, there were the inevitable yummy mummies in the playground, a sprinkling of 4x4s and a few very wealthy parents. But actually most parents were not hugely well off and probably had to make a lot of sacrifices. But even so, I agree that just by dint of being a fee paying school, you are automatically putting your child into a situation that ISN'T the norm (after all, isnt it 93% of kids are state educated?)And I found that, as you say, almost without thinking about it, some of teachers, parents, and sadly the kids, developed quite bigoted attitudes. I used to overhear some of ds's friends say things with a bit of a sneer like 'I'm glad I don't go to a state school'. I'm very proud of ds for making the decision to move (I think my children are all socialists and would abolish private schools!) and I'm very impressed with what I've seen with his new school. Yes, the private school ds was at was much better re: Music - but then it IS a specialist dfes funded school so has to produce the top musicians of the future so it damn well should be!!! Apart from that, and some better facilities (pool etc) I can't see what the school can offer that the state school doesnt also deliver. And you have to remember that the state school are delivering to classes of 30, not 15, so if anything, i feel the teachers are probably more skilled.

If you do a search there was a long thread on this not that long ago

No. If the state schools were rubbish I might think about it but ethically I have a problem with paying for things which I would have to struggle to overcome before I thought it right to do such a thing and if there was a good state school nearby that would be where my kids went.

That sounds a fantastic school with 72% at GCSE. Our local and only state choice is 33% with an annual stabbing. It's grim and a complete shame.

Interesting discussion. No, I don't think I would send ds private if there were perfectly good state schools in the area. As it happens, we do live somewhere with v. good state schools and that is where ds is going. Couldn't afford private anyway, tbh.

But it is selection by postcode - house prices round here reflect the good schools.

No I wouldn't. I'd save my money (if I had any) in case they wanted to go to university or backpack round the world. University wracks up such a huge debt.
But then I home ed anyhow.

But aren't the grounds soo much nicer at private schools?

If I sent DS to a private school, it would be for nicer grounds, and so he can mix with children from a certain type of home.(And I think he's look quite good in a blazer) I'm actually relieved DH refused to pay school fees, as I think DS would have been a lit less happy at the local private school.

We've just had this exact discussion at home as DS1 is in year 5 and we are starting to think about secondary choices. We are very fortunate to be able to send him to a local faith school which has just had an amazing Ofsted report and 78% A-C grades. Our first private choice is also a faith school and has 85% A-C grades so you have to think - why would you do it? Obviously, the state school doesn't have the 100 acres or the brand new gym of the private school but we already pay for drum and guitar lessons and sailing club for DS which would have to be scrapped if he went to private school and for the 12k per year which we won't be spending on school fees, we'll be able to pay for an awful lot of out-of-school activities!

You send your children to the best place you can. If you can afford fees, you simply have more choices.

I've worked in a school that made the Outstanding grade in each category in a recent Ofsted. It's a school that people move house to go to. I was seriously underwhelmed by it, and as a teacher there, was able to see through the window dressing.

If you are content with your choice, and you are saving money, then few people could criticise you. It's your DS's future after all, and not anyone elses.

Because your child is happier there. My second placement school on PGCE had a girl come back into their sixth form, having managed four weeks at an excellent Six Form College. It was as simple as that.

In answer to the OP, no I wouldn't - but I'm not in that position anyway, nor are a lot of people, unfortunately.

If there were such a thing as a really good state grammar school I wouldn't bother paying to go private.

But there isn't so I pays

"I can't see what the school can offer that the state school doesnt also deliver"

Alfie's babe you are very lucky to have a good state school near you, very lucky indeed.

There are many things that I pay for and tbh resent paying for.

alfiesbabe - my father's youngest brother has four children, one of whom is still at school, one at University and two who recently graduated.

My uncle's eldest son is by far the cleverest of the four and went to a state grammar school, Judd, in Tonbridge. The following three children who would not have got into said grammar school, or any other selective state school, went to private boarding schools.

My uncle offered my eldest cousin the chance to go to a private school - my uncle could easily afford the fees - but my cousin preferred the grammar school. He ended up with a first from a very good university, an MSc from another very good university and now has an excellent graduate job.

So - answer - if you think the state school is just as good as private and it suits your child - send him/her to the state school.

Sometimes snobbery influences parents' (or children's) choice of school.

I am not sure. I sent ours to schools who have the best results often in the top `10 or 5 of the whole country out of state and boarding. No state school ever quite gets to that level. Occasionally one reaches about place 20. So in our case we really are buying better on just about any scale you like to mention.

Today's telegraph has an article where two teachers keep a diary as they swap from state to private, private to state. The lady at the end - private to stage head seems to have moved from a rather mediocre private to a good state for example which may be your example.

Certainly the very best private schools would expect 97 or even 99% A or A* at GCSE not 85% A - C! Big difference.

Obviously some parents must feel they want to pay for other things like may be accent, class, lessons in manners, the straw boater, the lakes, I've even known people put a child in a private school so the parents are able to make contacts - earned more than the schools fees cost them in terms of business gained - huge range of reasons people use.

In London it's a bit starker though.... isn't it? You have some of the best private schools in the land and some absolutely appalling state ones so it's a very very different choice from in other parts of the country.

Some people simply don't have the option of a good state school. Some people in London can afford a million pounds to buy a house in the catchment area of a good state school. That is just as socially divisive IMO.

Education in this country is a lottery.

Interesting question.

I would be in this position if dd gets into the hugely oversubscribed and academically exceptional state school at our doorstep. I would have to decide whether to move her from the private school where she currently attends nursery and settled in nicely or move her and take up the place at the state school.

The main reason why I am even considering keeping dd at the private school is because I am WOHM and it would make my life so much easier to have freely available wraparound childcare and on-site/school organised extra-curricular activities.

Wraparound care comes as given at the private school but would require me to be on wait lists for years at the state school, with continuous pestering required from me to even secure 1 out of 5 days of breakfast/afterschool club.

Also, it is difficult for me to drive dd to and from extracurricular activities after school during the school week. I would prefer dd to do these during the weekday rather than the weekend, which is family time. The private school can organise all that.

Obviously, this is not such a huge concern at secondary level as dcs would be more independent and can get themselves to activities on a bus, say. But at primary level, I would consider paying just for the peace of mind and logistical ease of planning for a working mother.

ScienceTeacher - that's awful that you've worked in a school which got Ofsted 'Outstanding' which you weren't impressed with! I teach in a state school, and having had a recent Ofsted, I have to say i think the system is pretty robust. Certainly the 2 days notice you get now doesn't allow for the window dressing that used to go on. Having said that, I certainly wouldnt just take Ofsted into account - I think academic results are part of it, but there are plenty of other aspects to a school which are important too.
Xenia - your argument is interesting, though I have to say, the 'top' private school thing and getting 97% pass rate honestly doesn't bother me at all. I think once you get to around 70%, then what you've got is a school where there's a culture of academic success, which is the important thing. tbh I couldn't give a fig whether it's 97% or 79% of kids who get the magic numbers - as long as my ds gets the required passes and achieves his potential that's what matters to me.
Anna8888 - interesting post. My ds is very bright - the brightest of my 3 dcs- so it's interesting that he found the narrowness of the private school limiting and prefers the state school.

Lynette DS1 is in a state school and they have phonemenal grounds. Truly gorgeous.