Do all good schools "manage" their intake?

[DetailMouse]

I used to work in a small, oversubscribed infant school. Ofsted outstanding.

The head conducted all the new parent tours herself. Not because she wanted to sell the school, there was no need for that, but because she wanted an opportunity to persuade the "wrong" families that the school wasn't for them.

For example, she knew the addresses she didn't want and would tell them what a full and expensive extra curricular programme they led and anyone who's child had SEND would be told it would be very difficult for a small school to meet their needs, had they tried xyz school.

She was very good at her job, completely committed to the staff, the school and the children. Ran a very good school for those children lucky enough to have a place, but I only stayed 2 years because this made me so uncomfortable.

I went on to a struggling school with an equally committed head, but very many social problems.

Should I have realised all "nice" schools do this? Also perhaps this is what parents at nice schools want?

Can a truly mixed intake school succeed?

@Ionlydomassiveones

“We never break the admissions rules (some schools do this).”

How do they do that?

Let's suppose you've got one space in Year 2. On Monday morning, you receive an application by post from Family A. They are your original super hard work family (you know this because you've had various phone calls) - child is currently at their third or fourth local school, parents are rude and aggressive, child has been excluded for disruptive behaviour etc. They already have a local school space and live 2 miles away. You receive the application on Monday morning but genuinely haven't got round to acknowledging it yet because you're busy. At 7am Tuesday morning, you get emailed an application from Family B. This family have just bought a house 100 yards from the school. Parents are lovely, child's current school are falling over themselves to tell you how great they are. The family have already toured the school, loved it, have been desperate to apply, but had to wait until exchange of contracts to confirm their address. The other nearby schools are full, so if they don't come to you then the only option is a school the other side of town.

According to your admissions criteria, Family B are clearly higher priority because they live closer. However, because Family A got their application in the day before, the rules state that they should be given the place. At our school, we would give Family A the place, as would most schools. However, I do know of at least one school who would almost certainly quietly pretend that the posted application from Family A didn't arrive until Tuesday morning, and offer Family B the place instead. It's breaking the rules, but in a way that's almost impossible to detect.

@AledsiPad

So, so common. I had this when touring schools for my son (he has an EHCP) and it was devastating. He attends a school that is not catchment, not with his sibling, because of this. BUT he is very happy and well supported where he is.

I would say I feel like I know the exact head you’re talking about, OP, but I fear it’s just so common that it’s probably unlikely. (But, just in case, south coast, recently retired, in love with herself??)

Yes on your second two points, but no not South Coast.

No L either for PP

Small primary here. It’s now an academy and since then the children are managed out if they aren’t suitable. More on terms of behaviour rather than anything else.

If a family are causing bother and the kids are violent/badly behaved. They seem to leave mid term.

It’s a marked difference since it became an academy. To be honest it’s made the school nicer for the children because they don’t have to get kicked, punched etc on a regular basis.

A few problem families have disappeared over the past few years. They have definitely been managed out.

I didn’t know if they are selective when parents go and tour. But I suspect they might be. It’s definitely not a class related thing, it’s more that they don’t want problem families.

SEN is welcomed though so it’s not that, they have a high amount of SEN.

My kids went to a catholic school. They aren’t catholic. The school obviously takes catholics first but is known for taking difficult kids. There were several with SEN needs and prob more to be diagnosed in their classes and in a couple of cases they had transferred from other local schools after having real problems. I loved the fact that this amazing school loved every child and helped them all thrive. I would get rid of any category that excludes including faith but as a model for how school should behave within this some are ethical.

We moved our kids to a good rated primary that has a third of kids with SEN or in need in another way (family life etc)

It's in a lovely leafy area, the head is just totally open and has taken all the kids with SEN offrolled by other schools that didn't want to deal with them long term so ignored them being violently bullied etc.

So yes it is possible. But the fact that so many kids have ended up at this one school is a good indication of what happens at the other schools...

I’m sure a lot do. And obviously going through the motions to get into a faith school can act as a handy filters.

However, it’s impossible to run a good school that’s good for everyone. If you are applying for schools in the private sector, a key question to ask any head is ‘who wouldn’t your school work for?’ I do think the one size fits all system is a real problem for the state sector.

I mean, surely you understand the reason the school had no what you call 'social problems'? Idealism and reality don't mix very well.

@Nat6999

ChildOfFriday Google Mercia School Sheffield, look at the website, kids can get detentions for looking the wrong way at a teacher or not answering a question quick enough. I know of one girl who got detention for dropping a pencil & not noticing she had left it when they changed lessons.

I don't doubt the strict nature of the school, and I can see just by looking at the admissions criteria page that they talk a lot about only applying if you're fully committed to all the rules, think it would be right for your child, etc, so I wouldn't be at all surprised to see some underhand putting people off applying like others have described on here. Once people have applied though, the admissions are handled by Sheffield LEA and seem to be a fairly standard children who are or used to be in care/siblings/catchment/feeder schools/everyone else order, so I can't see how they can legally interview every family and base admissions on this or turn down people for things like not agreeing to have their child photographed. Can any admissions experts advise if there are any loopholes along these lines?

@EllieNBeeb

I mean, surely you understand the reason the school had no what you call 'social problems'? Idealism and reality don't mix very well.

Yes of course I do, that was the exact point of the thread.

@ChildOfFriday I think almost all schools manage admissions correctly once the applications are in. For LA schools the schools doesn't even know who's applied unless they get a place. It would be a very big deal if they were found to be doing otherwise, that's why some work so hard to only get the "right" applicants

[quote DetailMouse]@ChildOfFriday I think almost all schools manage admissions correctly once the applications are in. For LA schools the schools doesn't even know who's applied unless they get a place. It would be a very big deal if they were found to be doing otherwise, that's why some work so hard to only get the "right" applicants[/quote]
I agree- that's how I understood it as well.

It depends where you are in the UK maybe? We've always lived in areas where everyone just went to the local catchment school ( unless going privately). If any places left over, people from out of catchment could apply but these would be small in number.

We lived in different areas at different times though, and the more well off areas did have " better" exam results as you might expect.

There are up and down sides to having in year admissions run by the LA. It probably does reduce any admissions maladministration (whether deliberate or just schools not understanding the rules). However, some LAs are phenomenally slow. I've had families leave our school and move to another LA, and wait weeks, occasionally even months, for a school place.

Not all schools, no.
I’m surprised by how many people still refer to Ofsted to help judge the quality of schools. Forget Ofsted and visit schools of interest to form your own judgement.

Haven't rtwt, but I used to teach in a secondary school where the Head told the SENCo to hide at Open Evening and basically told all the teachers to discourage parents of pupils with special educational needs from applying. I made the mistake of questioning this with incredulity when he said it. My life at that school was made difficult afterwards (although a few staff members came up to me and praised me afterwards). I left after one year.

Officially no. Unofficially, you betcha... Schools can't legally stop parents applying or deny entry to children who fit the admissions criteria if they have space. But they drop in subtle little comments to sow seeds of doubt in parents minds and dissuade 'less desirable' families from applying in the first place. It's a despicable practice and really boils my piss.

My DS has SEND and requires additional support. He's a lovely, lovely little boy who really tries hard but is never going to be Cherry-picked by any school as a preferred pupil. I have definitely experienced subtle attempts by Heads to convince me that I shouldn't apply to their school. Genuine comments made to me when viewing schools have included:

"Well, this is a small school and he would stand out a lot here...."

"If he has problems with X,Y,Z then we couldn't really accommodate that..." (he didn't, and when I pointed that out to the Head then various other imaginary 'blocks' were created to try and dissuade me.)

"We do put a strong focus on traditional academic subjects and that doesn't suit every child...."

"We don't really have any suitable space for a child to have time out/a sensory break..."

"You might want to talk to the Head of X school (names nearest competitor school), I hear she's a bit of an expert in this area"

"We don't generally have many children like X."

Another popular trick is for Heads and to have hardly any availability to talk to SEND families - by making themselves unavailable, they communicate the message that the school is not a welcoming place without actually doing anything illegal.

We have a completely unbalanced and unfair school system in the U.K. I am very fortunate that my DS found a lovely school with a kind Head and very supportive teachers. But a lot of kids are not so lucky.

Sad to hear there is still manipulation of admissions. This is how it was, only much more overt, nearly 30 years ago when my children were toddlers and I was just starting to hear about the local schools from other parents with older children already in the system. I remember one mother spitting tacks because she had been chatting to a woman who was a single mother with twins and starting to think about Reception class applications.

Twin mum had gone into the office of school A, which was her nearest school, and asked about applying (this was before you applied via the LEA - at this time each primary school handled its own admissions and you could apply to as many as you liked).

The School Secretary, who was apparently known for this, said, in a very offhand discourteous way, 'Your school is School B', which was the next nearest school.

This was before Ofsted, SATs, National Curriculum and performance management. There were enormous differences between schools.

School A had a reputation for being very warm, nurturing, strong on creative subjects, and solidly middle class. It was a small school which happened not to have much social housing in its immediate area. From other things I've heard I would say it was coasting, but it was undoubtedly a nice, happy school where behaviour was OK, and at that time in our area that was a huge plus.

School B was much bigger, and most of its intake came from some quite rundown council flats with a high %age of families from ethnic minorities. It had a very high turnover of staff and pupils and as soon as Ofsted visited a few years later it went into special measures.

Twin mum was Black British and not posh. Secretary clearly thought she and her twins were not the right sort for School A. I never heard what happened next, but can well imagine Twin mum decided if that was the attitude they wouldn't have a good experience at School A.

I had hoped those days had gone.

@Lancelottie this has just happened to us.

Overall suspect socioeconomic of the catchment area is the main determiner though.

I used to work in a small school, the number of parents of year 5 children at neighbouring schools who were told that their child would be better off at a small school for yr 6 was unbelievable. Strange that they were, without exception, lower achieving ones who wouldn't gain expected levels in yr 6 SATS😲.

@scootalucy

I don't want to derail thread but on a related note my cousins son was the only child in his class not to go to the local CofE middle school. They just turned him down. Has anyone ever heard of such a thing? My cousin was distraught and thought it was because he was a tricky child (undiagnosed SEN).

It happens all the time. It won't be because he was a tricky child. If the CofE school is a VC school, it won't have had any involvement in the admissions process at all. Even if it is a VA school, they will not have received any information from the primary school that would allow them to make such a decision (which, in any case, they are not allowed to make - the Admissions Code specifically bans schools from taking previous behaviour into account unless the child has been permanently excluded twice). The letter your cousin received saying that your cousin hadn't got a place should have set out the reason, but it will be due to him not being high enough up the admission criteria.

State schools are not allowed to interview parents either.

@prh47bridge
I see Mercia School says parents should list it as first choice if they want a place. Is this good advice? I didn’t think order of preference was considered.

[quote TizerorFizz]@prh47bridge
I see Mercia School says parents should list it as first choice if they want a place. Is this good advice? I didn’t think order of preference was considered.[/quote]
It isn't and won't be (the equal preference system is law across England and in the Admissions Code) but unfortunately misleading wording like that on the website will further spread the myth that you have to put X School first to stand a chance and that schools prioritise people who put them first. My biggest admissions bugbear!

It is and it isn't!

You are correct that naming a school as first choice does not give you any priority for that school. However, if your child qualifies for places at more than one school, you will only be offered the place at your highest choice. One of the problems we regularly see is parents who have named the school they really want as second choice and put their local school as first choice through misunderstanding the system. They worry that, if they put the school they really want as first choice and don't get a place, they will also miss out on the local school because they've made it their second choice. The result, of course, is that, even if they qualify for a place at their preferred school, they won't get it because they have named their local school as their highest preference and they've got a place there.

So, Mercia is quite right to say that, if you want a place, you should list it as first choice. They would, however, be wrong to imply that you won't get a place simply because you name it as second choice.