Do all good schools "manage" their intake?

[DetailMouse]

I used to work in a small, oversubscribed infant school. Ofsted outstanding.

The head conducted all the new parent tours herself. Not because she wanted to sell the school, there was no need for that, but because she wanted an opportunity to persuade the "wrong" families that the school wasn't for them.

For example, she knew the addresses she didn't want and would tell them what a full and expensive extra curricular programme they led and anyone who's child had SEND would be told it would be very difficult for a small school to meet their needs, had they tried xyz school.

She was very good at her job, completely committed to the staff, the school and the children. Ran a very good school for those children lucky enough to have a place, but I only stayed 2 years because this made me so uncomfortable.

I went on to a struggling school with an equally committed head, but very many social problems.

Should I have realised all "nice" schools do this? Also perhaps this is what parents at nice schools want?

Can a truly mixed intake school succeed?

Oversubscribed Ofsted 'good' school here.
We have absolutely no way of preventing people applying for places, and no way of choosing who gets in.
I assume youust be talking about a private school?

The majority of kids just go to the nearest school, no choice.

Also ofsted outstanding is mostly about having the right policies...

I assume youust be talking about a private school?

No I know a MS state school with a similar head, but in answer to your question OP, no it’s not the norm.

I don't think they manage to that extent but many good schools do manipulate their intake.

I toured my DD's high school with my then h, we were honest and told the head about my DD's issues (autism) which he assured us was absolutely fine but I can't help thinking that our job titles (on the application form) might have helped get her a place, he asked if exh would give a talk to year 9's at the end of the tour!

I worked at a Catholic school. I fully believe that their results was partly due to the hoops the parents had to jump through for admission leading to it being those dedicated families gaining places. (And parental support is a big contributer to success)

@SuffolkBargeWoman

Oversubscribed Ofsted 'good' school here. We have absolutely no way of preventing people applying for places, and no way of choosing who gets in. I assume youust be talking about a private school?

There is some thoughts that one of the two comps in my town does/did exactly as described in the OP - it doesn't stop people applying, but it subtly discourages them.

At the time we were looking for my DCs 10 years ago or so we went to an open day. Lots of talk about all their excellent high achievements from the HT. Nothing at all about supporting strugglers. I also heard of other parents saying that the school had advised them that the other local school might be better set up to help their DC's dyslexia...

That's very extreme but yes, good schools do try to manage their intake. Uniform is a notorious way of doing this - make the uniform expensive, branded-only-to-be-bought-from-the-school-shop, and insist every pupil has a laptop, add in a load of expensive PE kit, etc etc.

The standout one near me has a particularly expensive uniform and extra-long half-terms. And an entirely MC intake. And excellent results. I’d agree with you OP. It’s absolutely fascinating and hugely pernicious.

I have definitely heard of schools discouraging the children with SEND by saying their provision wasn’t very good. When I was first told this, by a friend whose son it applied to, she was under the impression that the school was trying to be honest and helpful with her. But on second thoughts…

@SuffolkBargeWoman

Oversubscribed Ofsted 'good' school here. We have absolutely no way of preventing people applying for places, and no way of choosing who gets in. I assume youust be talking about a private school?

No, state school. She couldn't stop anyone applying and couldn't stop them getting a place if they met the criteria, but for certain parents she was very good at persuading them the school wasn't for them so they didn't apply.

I was (perhaps somewhat stupidly) surprised that my kids (oversubscribed and popular) state school is selective for 6th form, in that you can only continue to 6th form if you have an average GCSE grade score of X (I can't actually what it is) If unlikely to reach that they are encouraged to go to a local college, so then that obviously skews their A level results as they've effectively "weeded out" those likely to bring the average down. I just assumed it was just a continuation of school.

@Fizbosshoes

I was (perhaps somewhat stupidly) surprised that my kids (oversubscribed and popular) state school is selective for 6th form, in that you can only continue to 6th form if you have an average GCSE grade score of X (I can't actually what it is) If unlikely to reach that they are encouraged to go to a local college, so then that obviously skews their A level results as they've effectively "weeded out" those likely to bring the average down. I just assumed it was just a continuation of school.

I think all sixth forms have entry criteria for Alevel?

This definitely happens. We have a school with a resource base for children with autism. Other schools tell their SEN families that they can't meet their child's needs and they should come to us. The RB admissions are separate and everyone in the local schools knows this. We get so many parents coming and saying X school have said we should come here because DC has Down syndrome/speech delay/ADHD.

@Fizbosshoes

I was (perhaps somewhat stupidly) surprised that my kids (oversubscribed and popular) state school is selective for 6th form, in that you can only continue to 6th form if you have an average GCSE grade score of X (I can't actually what it is) If unlikely to reach that they are encouraged to go to a local college, so then that obviously skews their A level results as they've effectively "weeded out" those likely to bring the average down. I just assumed it was just a continuation of school.

I think a lot of people get caught out by that one, at both state and private. Not as bad though as the school(s) who were weeding out after y12 (mid A levels) because Cs weren't good enough. (Now ruled not allowed iirc)

@Fizbosshoes

I was (perhaps somewhat stupidly) surprised that my kids (oversubscribed and popular) state school is selective for 6th form, in that you can only continue to 6th form if you have an average GCSE grade score of X (I can't actually what it is) If unlikely to reach that they are encouraged to go to a local college, so then that obviously skews their A level results as they've effectively "weeded out" those likely to bring the average down. I just assumed it was just a continuation of school.

Sixth form is different. A-level study requires a certain ability level; it's completely reasonable to have entry requirements. Colleges offer a wider range of qualifications (b-tech etc) which are more accessible to students with a lower GCSE attainment level.

I’d say that our local secondary did that to us, over ten years back. None too subtle suggestions that ‘of course, you can put it in his Statement [what’s now an EHCP] but it doesn’t mean we’ll be able to do it.’

Autistic DS went elsewhere. And got A/A* GCSEs and A-levels, so yah boo sucks to them.

My godfather’s son was asked to leave his private school at Easter of Year 13! He hadn’t done anything “wrong” - not burnt the school down or fed a teacher to a tiger or anything - but he was expecting Ds and Es and the school boasted that everyone got 3 Cs or higher. To be fair - he was a total slacker so they had every right to be a bit fed up with him but as he had been at the school, it’s attached prep and it’s attached pre prep since he was 2 and a half I kind of felt that maybe the school had some responsibility for that!

He ended up taking his A levels at a local college.

I particularly loved the fact that they kept him on until the Easter rather than kick him out at the end of Year 12 - 15 years of fees were just not enough - they wanted the full 15 years and two terms!

SirSam Perfectly fine to have entrance requirements for A levels.

Less fine to brag about them to prospective parents without making it clear there is a cull after y11 if you don't average 7.5 from your best 8 GCSEs...

I don't think the staff at my children's outstanding secondary school actively do anything to manage the intake but circumstances conspire to affect who applies and I think that does influence the outcomes.
The school is in a holiday town where property is expensive and there are masses of second homes. There aren't that many families with children and many of those that there are, are, given the property prices, fairly well heeled.
But over half the pupils live outside the catchment area and come in by bus, some from over 30 miles away. So it's self selecting population of parents who actively want their children to attend that school.And who can afford the transport, will do a 50 mile round trip to collect from after school trips etc etc.
Most of the children in our village go, and logically it should be our catchment school, but it isn't.I don't think this is the school's doing, but I do suspect it is a money saving measure on the part of the council. If they expanded the catchment to better reflect the areas that pupils actually come from, then they'd get the transport bill instead of us. As it is, we are offered free transport to another school, similar distance in the opposite direction which isn't as popular. It must save them a fortune. But it does have the effect that families who can't afford the over £1k per year bus fees can't go to our school.
So whilst it's technically non selective, and there is a range of pupils - not everyone is well off - it's not really a random cross section of society. Because so many children are from out of catchment they tend to have motivated parents who are very supportive of the school and value its particular ethos. I think this actually makes a bigger difference than the fact that a lot of the pupils are from better off families, though you can't discount that factor. For instance, there was recently an appeal for funds for books and thousands were raised very quickly, pretty much everyone buys the revision aids, offered makes any voluntary donations requested and so on, which would be out of reach for some less well off families. So I do raise an eyebrow a bit when the school boasts about being the most successful non selective school in the county!

@Lancelottie

I’d say that our local secondary did that to us, over ten years back. None too subtle suggestions that ‘of course, you can put it in his Statement [what’s now an EHCP] but it doesn’t mean we’ll be able to do it.’

Autistic DS went elsewhere. And got A/A* GCSEs and A-levels, so yah boo sucks to them.

Yes, my friend’s son too - exactly the same scenario. Ended up at an academy chain school with a dodgy reputation and generally poor results, and which many a parent tried to avoid, where he got all A*/A.

@TeenPlusCat

SirSam Perfectly fine to have entrance requirements for A levels.

Less fine to brag about them to prospective parents without making it clear there is a cull after y11 if you don't average 7.5 from your best 8 GCSEs...

Maybe... I would have thought most people know sixth forms are selective though? Not sure if I'd describe that as a "cull".

Definitely not in the same league as the headteacher described in the OP, anyway.

There's really no sense in a sixth form not having an entry criteria for A Levels. It's not good for anyone, least of all the students, to accept students onto courses when they'll likely get a U. A Levels aren't just like GCSE's for older students, they're academically rigorous. The school should have a range of courses (BTEC, Diplomas etc) too, so different abilities are catered for. Unfortunately, the funding for pretty much anything other than A Levels disappears in a couple of years, to be replaced by "T Levels", which in many cases regular schools don't have the ability to provide. So if anything, this situation is only going to get worse, with fewer less academic students able to stay on at their schools for sixth form, if they don't meet the entry criteria for A Levels.

My daughter's primary and secondary schools took absolutely everyone. One was outstanding, one was good. I belief both were truly comprehensive in their approach (not selective) which is something I really wanted for my dd.

I don't want to derail thread but on a related note my cousins son was the only child in his class not to go to the local CofE middle school. They just turned him down. Has anyone ever heard of such a thing? My cousin was distraught and thought it was because he was a tricky child (undiagnosed SEN).

@scootalucy

I don't want to derail thread but on a related note my cousins son was the only child in his class not to go to the local CofE middle school. They just turned him down. Has anyone ever heard of such a thing? My cousin was distraught and thought it was because he was a tricky child (undiagnosed SEN).

They should have published admissions criteria and they should know why he didn't get in (I.e. distance from home).