Do all good schools "manage" their intake?

[DetailMouse]

I used to work in a small, oversubscribed infant school. Ofsted outstanding.

The head conducted all the new parent tours herself. Not because she wanted to sell the school, there was no need for that, but because she wanted an opportunity to persuade the "wrong" families that the school wasn't for them.

For example, she knew the addresses she didn't want and would tell them what a full and expensive extra curricular programme they led and anyone who's child had SEND would be told it would be very difficult for a small school to meet their needs, had they tried xyz school.

She was very good at her job, completely committed to the staff, the school and the children. Ran a very good school for those children lucky enough to have a place, but I only stayed 2 years because this made me so uncomfortable.

I went on to a struggling school with an equally committed head, but very many social problems.

Should I have realised all "nice" schools do this? Also perhaps this is what parents at nice schools want?

Can a truly mixed intake school succeed?

The thing is for 6th forms, there is 'selective' and then there is 'selective'

There is a vast difference in saying

• standard entrance is 5 GCSEs at grade 5 including English and Maths, with 7s in subjects you want to do for A level or their closest GCSE equivalent

versus

• minimum entrance is average grade 7.5 across your best 8

You can succeed in A levels from both. But you are stacking the deck in favour of better results with the latter entrance criteria.

I also think a lot of people with 10 year olds (or 4 years olds for all through schools) don't realise that some school 6th forms have very high entrance requirements for y12

That sounds crazy to me

Thinking back to the tour it was very generic selling type, the person doing it wouldn’t have known our address or if the dc had SEN

I suppose if you asked a question on the latter you might get the answer you mentioned

There's a school near us that gets really good results, and I know the primary school heads sometimes mention to lower performing kids that they may find it hard to keep up and would fit in better somewhere else.

So sort of as you describe OP, but somehow not done by the headteacher himself!

@MarshaBradyo

That sounds crazy to me

Thinking back to the tour it was very generic selling type, the person doing it wouldn’t have known our address or if the dc had SEN

I suppose if you asked a question on the latter you might get the answer you mentioned

She took tours of 2-3 families at a time and absolutely knew who they were. They were effectively being interviewed, although she was very good at making it seem like she was just very interested in them and their children.

This was her main piece of work in the half term before the admissions deadline and vital to the success of the school (in her view).

My children went to comprehensive schools with none of the selection by stealth that goes on so much around here (various methods, various schools). Thank goodness. The 6th form offers alternatives to A levels (NVQs etc, other further education qualifications) so can cater properly for people who want to go onto further education but aren't up to A levels. Why can't all schools manage it? Prob parental prejudice in everyone being obsessed with Ofsted "good".

When i toured the local school last month the head teacher told me they were basically crap with sen students. Glad she told me tbh as dont want DS to go somewhere he isnt wanted and ended up discovering a nicer school

I also see (I am a governor at a primary school) parents encouraged to change schools if the children aren't 'settling in' or at finding 'or school a challenge' we find when we get such great children that our teachers are often better at understanding the children. But it's not fair on them.

Conversley the lovemt family I saw the school helped them (did it for them) fill out the forms to request a transfer.

It definitely happens at entry and beyond subtly

I was clearly told by two secondary school SENCOs that their school couldn’t meet my son’s needs. The third school took him with the SENCO stating “he will struggle all the way through”.

Over him at the end of Y7 to a special school who DID want him and who supported him.

My secondary school is outstanding (although we haven't been inspected in years so that may well change when we are). We still need to sell the school to parents though, because our location means most kids are bussed in and the difference in education has to be worth the bus fares.
So no, we don't "manage" our intake. We take anyone who wants to come, whether they're a millionaire or on benefits.

@Whiskyinajar
^I was clearly told by two secondary school SENCOs that their school couldn’t meet my son’s needs. The third school took him with the SENCO stating “he will struggle all the way through”.

Over him at the end of Y7 to a special school who DID want him and who supported him.^

This is sadly the only way that children with complex SEND in our area get the specialist provision they need. If we are managing to support them in mainstream primary, we have no chance at all at getting them a specialist placement for secondary, even when this is very clearly needed. It’s only when secondaries say they can’t meet need that the LA consider trying to find something that does.

@MsAwesomeDragon

My secondary school is outstanding (although we haven't been inspected in years so that may well change when we are). We still need to sell the school to parents though, because our location means most kids are bussed in and the difference in education has to be worth the bus fares. So no, we don't "manage" our intake. We take anyone who wants to come, whether they're a millionaire or on benefits.

If they are on benefits do they have help with the bus fares?

The school my niece goes to is a state school but very much like the Michaela schools. The head states that unless parents are prepared to agree to absolutely everything then they aren't prepared to take the child. That includes taking photos for school websites & publications, I heard of a family who had two adopted children & a Foster child who asked for the children to not be included in photographs because of the birth parents looking for the children who were told unless they agreed then the children would not be accepted in the school. All parents & children have to go through an interview & a home visit & several children were carefully rejected because on SEN.

@Nat6999

The school my niece goes to is a state school but very much like the Michaela schools. The head states that unless parents are prepared to agree to absolutely everything then they aren't prepared to take the child. That includes taking photos for school websites & publications, I heard of a family who had two adopted children & a Foster child who asked for the children to not be included in photographs because of the birth parents looking for the children who were told unless they agreed then the children would not be accepted in the school. All parents & children have to go through an interview & a home visit & several children were carefully rejected because on SEN.

Surely this cannot be legal in a state school? The school will have published admissions criteria that need to be strictly followed.

If they are on benefits do they have help with the bus fares?

School transport is free to your nearest catchment school if it's more than three miles away or there's no safe walking route.

The HT of one of our two local primary schools definitely discouraged us from applying (at the time DD had all sorts of issues raised by preschool). We didn't want to go to that shitty exam factory anyway, DD goes to a really lovely primary in roughly the same catchment, but with a much higher proportion of SEN and FSM - almost double despite being about 500m apart.

Oh yes, this sounds familiar. Just makes it so difficult and awful for families with kids with SEN that they leave or never apply. Result - better grades and lower number of kids with Sen which means parents with NT kids can have more confidence those pesky disabled children won't be taking up time.

Resulting in better ofsted scores,more people applying and a squeeze on places.

And I'm sure a great stat to put on the head's cv.

@Aroundtheworldin80moves

I worked at a Catholic school. I fully believe that their results was partly due to the hoops the parents had to jump through for admission leading to it being those dedicated families gaining places. (And parental support is a big contributer to success)

There is a small Catholic primary near me that is like this. It's right next to a large, good community school which we and a lot of people really prefer but some parents seem to like the fact it's a bit more exclusive. The larger Catholic primaries the other side of town are not hard to get into though.

@LadyMacduff

If they are on benefits do they have help with the bus fares?

School transport is free to your nearest catchment school if it's more than three miles away or there's no safe walking route.

Yes but the poster up thread said they had to persuade people it was ‘worth the bus fare’ (so presumably not catchment school) but the poster didn’t believe their school was ‘managing their intake’.

I work in many schools with Sencos and senior leaders. The reality is, some do this and some don’t but I am certain there is no correlation between this behaviour and outcomes, and it is more common in schools with weak heads and mediocre teaching practices. It’s something to hide weak practices behind. In general, the standout schools I have worked with (and reviewed for MAT leadership teams) have been the most actively inclusive and supportive of disabled children in their school. The heads and sencos have also known the law well and have been superb at ensuring sufficient money and resources come their way. When I’m asked to do SEND reviews I don’t beat about the bush if this practice is going on, and have had several uncomfortable conversations when I’ve challenged heads and governors around this.

On a personal note, My son has SEN and attends the tenth best performing (according to SATS bollockery) school in our large county. They are ofsted outstanding in every area and we were no way discouraged from him joining (with an EHCP, from another school). We were made to feel so welcome. He has absolutely thrived, and so do the other pupils. They have been nothing but supportive and actively choose a diverse intake. Neurodiversity is talked about and celebrated. In fact, they have set up an autism support centre which takes children from across the county, and our legend of a headteacher has spent the week leapfrogging red tape to allow a child’s Ukrainian cousins to join the day they arrive in the U.K.

I know from my professional experience that we are very fortunate. But such schools do exist and it goes to show any school can be high performing and inclusive

I work at a very good primary. For the most part, no, we don't do this. We are a genuinely inclusive school, with very good SEN provision, and we have a senior leadership team who honestly believe in the importance of running a mixed community school. But, I would be lying if I said we were just as warmly encouraging towards a parent who phones up saying they're 'pulling their kids out' of the third local school they've been in, because 'all the schools are fucking crap', as we are towards a polite and charming family who are just moving into the area and need school places, whose transferring school describe their children as 'delightful' (regardless of their income, academic ability etc).

To be honest I think that makes us only human. We know full well how much time, money and staff stress the first family are likely to cause us compared with the second. However, what is absolutely true is that, when we do admit the first family, we will do our absolute utmost to support their kids. We never try to claim that our SEN provision isn't great (and yes, some schools definitely do this). We never break the admissions rules (some schools do this). And we also try to discourage 'nice' families from moving to us from other local schools, even though it would benefit us, because it would damage the other, less popular schools. So overall, I think we behave pretty well - but I can't pretend there aren't some applicants that we treat with less than gushing enthusiasm.

Op I don’t suppose her first name began with L. I have a bright dc with sn and the head of a state school we toured was very keen on us until I explained my dc’s needs. At that point she basically brushed us off. I think this is probably a minority of schools - sad to see this kind of discriminatory practice. But definitely goes on.

So, so common. I had this when touring schools for my son (he has an EHCP) and it was devastating. He attends a school that is not catchment, not with his sibling, because of this. BUT he is very happy and well supported where he is.

I would say I feel like I know the exact head you’re talking about, OP, but I fear it’s just so common that it’s probably unlikely. (But, just in case, south coast, recently retired, in love with herself??)

ChildOfFriday Google Mercia School Sheffield, look at the website, kids can get detentions for looking the wrong way at a teacher or not answering a question quick enough. I know of one girl who got detention for dropping a pencil & not noticing she had left it when they changed lessons.