Urgh school fees help me decide if to keep in with them

[violetlilacs]

Dc are at a prep. It infuriates me at least weekly. But I'm beginning to think this is all schools not just this one. This is the dc second school already and we had the same issues before.

I'm starting to look at secondary schools and the grind of paying fees is starting to show for me. I went pt as I felt in order to get the best out of the school I have to be around to help dc with their work and also to force them around to various swimming galas and other sports fixtures (live rurally)

Secondary, I'm not quite sure what happens with things like swimming galas etc I imagine I'm still the official chauffeur though. Secondary school are obviously more expensive. I will have to work more hours and would have to get a new job to achieve this. I absolutely love a lot of things about the private system and can't imagine the state putting up with me, typical Madame nuisance parent but at the same time Im not sure about committing to another full dose of fees to get dc through school.

Can anyone help me wade through if it's worth it, I do think prep has been utterly worth it, all the dc are so nice, The schools is just nice which is why I picked it, but I think the educational ie academics aren't superior to state at all. And I'm wondering if this is more important when you're sitting gcse/a levels than having a swimming pool in the school grounds

Anyway I need to pick the pros and cons.
Also some secondary schools are extortionate and some are cheaper how do I really tell what's good what's not. We pay almost £20k pa on prep so any suggestions of secondary schools that are cheaper but get good results would be gratefully received as we can move due to wfh.
TIA

Force should read drive them*!

OK, I think it's hard to advise, as it really depends on what your actual school choices are like. But a couple of thoughts that might help.

First, there's no way I would be paying for a school that infuriates me that often! What's wrong with it? You call yourself a nuisance parent - does that mean you have ridiculous standards and would pick holes in any school, or do you think the current school is actually 'failing' regularly? If you're someone who's always going to find fault anyway, then maybe you're better doing that in a school where you're not paying for the privilege. OTOH if your infuriation is the result of poor 'customer service' from the school, then you may well find this is worse at a state school, where budgets are tighter and staffing is under more pressure.

Second, my experience of the parental involvement required at private secondary is pretty much the opposite of your experience (I've only ever done private secondary, not prep). I never have to chauffeur my children anywhere - that's one of the joys of their school. School transport is provided to all sports fixtures, trips etc. School days are longer than state, which frees me up to do my job better. There's endless wraparound provision if needed (eg breakfast, dinner, music practice rooms, library, common rooms etc which are open early until late). Not like some of our state schools which kick out at 2.30pm and have one bus home (we're quite rural too).

Academically, it will depend on the schools available. Ours is very strong, though we also had very good state options. So the private option edged it on academics, but only just.

As for cheaper vs more expensive schools, the question is not only what your options are, but what you're looking for as the advantage of private. Arguably, if your state options are good, then the advantages of private are the fantastic facilities, the extra curricular clubs, etc etc. Those things come at a price, so the cheapest private schools are less likely to offer lots that a good state option doesn't. But if your state option is awful, and all you're really wanting to pay for is the option to escape it, then a cheaper school with fewer bells and whistles might appeal.

What it boils down to is, you need to decide what's important to you in a school, and look at what your state options are like, before you can really decide. But if you're as high maintenance as you imply, then you might find a state school frustrating in terms of communications, organisation, facilities and so on.

Thinking again, it might be more helpful to answer the question from a different perspective. I know various people quite like you, who are relatively 'demanding' parents who opted for good state secondaries (usu grammars) after private prep. They vary in the degree to which they are happy with their choice, but when they do moan about school, these are the things they tend to moan about: too much staff absence, with general cover rather than subject specialists; poor communication generally, particularly not enough notice for events etc; not many extra curricular clubs, and those that do run are poorly attended and frequently cancelled due to staff absence; limited sport (not much curricular sport, and matches etc only for the top one or two teams); high staff turnover; difficulty of communicating with the school (little access to teaching staff, long response time to emails etc). I'm not saying all of this is true of all schools, but that's what I tend to hear. Complaints about academics and behaviour are less common - but these are generally parents with kids at very good schools, so that's maybe not surprising.

Can you say what infuriates you?

The change from private international to state English (primary) was a bit of a shock to my kids. I would imagine Prep to state secondary might also be a bit of a shock.

State secondary is unlikely to have a swim team round me. Private fees would be more like 15k a year tho, but not sure how many extras are needed.

A lot will depend on what the state options are like tho.

If you want all the extras and teams to be readily available, you need to stay private. However, having done both private and state for primary now, I’m not seeing much difference on academics. But we moved area to one with good state schools.

It all depends on where you are and what’s on offer. And whether you have the money to spend.

I don’t know anything about private schools but would you move to be in the catchment area for a good state school, or is this a complete no no?
We did the whole moving thing, my DC did really well at the local school, they made lovely friends and went to good universities and have careers they enjoy and that pay well. So far they appear to be doing slightly better or at least as well as their privately educated cousins.

I have DC in both private and state secondaries (for very specific reasons). I am underwhelmed by many things at the outstanding private school and actually have found the state school is better in many respects. I also see a culture of the private parents convincing themselves about how great the private offering is (of course, they have to justify the fees!). If you have a good (or even good enough) state school near you I would seriously consider moving your children.

Can anyone help me wade through if it's worth it, I do think prep has been utterly worth it, all the dc are so nice,

There are lots of nice children in state schools too you know...

Out of interest @bunfighters why do you describe the private school as both outstanding and underwhelming? Surely if it's one then it's not the other? If you mean that it's not as outstanding as it likes to think it is, then I'm sure that's true of plenty of schools, both state and private

Well, private schools don't offer anything special academically - their league table position is because they cream off the most advantaged children. They would have to do something fairly catastrophic not to automatically float to the top of tables.

The meaningful marker is the progress children make in a school, not the average end result.

What you pay for is the status and network. Some of which has rightly been diluted in terms of beneficial access to universities.

So if your priority is education and fees are pissing you off / stretching the budget, go back to state. You can always use the saved money to pay for targeted private tuition later on if you feel there are genuinely subjects where extra input is required.

mrsshinyshoes agreed, it is generally considered 'outstanding' and everything I read and saw in terms of open days, talking to current parents, the admissions process etc. supported that.

However, once my DC started I became very aware of its shortcomings. I have communicated these in detail to the school and hope changes are made. I now know that other parents feel the same way, but they really won't 'rock the boat' or communicate the issues to prospective parents. There is also sometimes a great deal of shame around children who are 'managed out' of private. Bullying can also be covered up.

In my experience, the mechanisms for complaints etc. are much more transparent in the state sector and parents have a different relationship with the school.

I also experienced both private and state as a child myself, as did my husband, which is perhaps unusual (but has helped form my views). I also teach and am involved in education in other ways...

What a delightful problem to have. Jesus Christ OP, you do realise there are kids out there that will go without a hot meal tonight and will sleep on a mattress on the floor?

You're angry with the prep school? Angry why? Because you've paid for your children to leapfrog their less wealthy peers? No, because you don't like driving them around to things. Fucks sake. This place is another planet.

I'm honestly not a die-hard private advocate (we happily went through state primary and only narrowly chose private secondary), but I do take slight issue with some of the above. First, it's a myth that everyone at private school is paying for status and networks - I don't give a stuff about that, and nor do lots of others I know (and equally I know plenty at state schools who absolutely do care about those things, but maybe in other aspects of life - like who goes to the right ski resort or belongs to the right tennis club). IME caring about status and networks is far more a social/personality thing than a private/state school split. Second, I agree that there are plenty of parents who chose private who are post-rationalising their choice - but that's also completely true of the parents who chose state over private. Justifying your choices is human nature, and if your child is fine and happy, then you're likely to think you made the 'right' choice - whatever that choice was. My children are having a fabulous time at their private school, so of course I think it was the right choice - but for all I know, they could have had an equally fabulous time at the state alternative - I'll never know. All you can do is look at what you think the advantages are of one choice over the other (and there are bound to be advantages and disadvantages on both sides), and try to weigh them up.

And yes of course, having that choice is an incredibly nice problem to have. But to be fair, so is deciding which house to buy, or which restaurant to eat in, or which holiday to book. But people are generally allowed to agonise about those things without attracting wrath on MN - it's school choice which makes people particularly irate.

@mrsshinyshoes

And yes of course, having that choice is an incredibly nice problem to have. But to be fair, so is deciding which house to buy, or which restaurant to eat in, or which holiday to book. But people are generally allowed to agonise about those things without attracting wrath on MN - it's school choice which makes people particularly irate.

You're right, deciding these things must be pure agony.

We have chosen a selective independent school, moved from tiny prep to the junior dept of a 6-18 school.
Reasons:
We have one child so can afford it easily with no worries about our standard of living dropping. It’s 15k per year (in the North!)
We enjoy the school experience ourselves at private, not sure this would be the same at a State school.
He’s in now until at least 16 without stress about 11+. He took 9+ with a term’s tutoring.
It’s probably one of the best schools results wise in the county. There are excellent state grammars 11+ but it’s a stress to get in.
Amazing facilities - sports, swimming, music, theatre, art, DT, library.
Lots of great co curricular opportunities. Already doing lots of clubs and fixtures. He’s 9.
So far he’s made great friends as more children are like him in terms of interests. No disruption or bad behaviour. They are all bright and eager to learn which makes for a great teaching and learning experience.
Small class sizes 2x 20 per year. It goes up to 8x20 in year 7. His prep was down to 13 in the year when he left, so it can be too small imo.
Great communication from school. Always well informed about what’s going on well in advance which wasn’t the case at his tiny prep. If I email his teacher I get a reply very quickly.
In terms of wrap around etc we can drop off after 7.30am free and after school is free until 4, then chargeable until 6. Senior school is similar in terms of timings and transport is well organised.

This in education not AIBU and it seems a straightforward enough question. Not sure why it needs to be derailed into politics!
I earn money, pay tax and spend my take home it on what is important to me. My son’s education is far more important to me than a 15k holiday a year. Others may make a different choice. Some have no choice which is sad for them but doesn’t mean my choice should be removed!

It’s important in my opinion to grow up mixing with all sorts of different people from all walks of life. You say the children at the current school are ‘so nice’ it might be a shock going into real adult life when only mixed with ‘nice’ children.

If you want to work full time when your kids are secondary you can. It's very different - there's almost nothing for you to do. They do their homework at school, all their sport things etc. are taken care of by the school. There is absolutely no hovering necessary - it would be counterproductive anyway, as they're supposed to be learning to be more independent/self-reliant.

There's a huge amount of wraparound care on offer (for no extra charge, in my limited experience), and that does not seem to be available to the same extent in state schools around here.

I'd stick it out, if you can.

Is that 20k for just one child? It’s a good £8000 a year more than I pay for my Dd!
I our case we chose private (they moved at the end of year 4) for several reasons.
The academic outcomes were far better than the local state options. That is of course still dependent on the child and how hard they work.
The extra curricular options were much better especially sport.
The pastoral care seemed very good.
The expectations for all were high.
My experience of both state primary and then private has been very positive all round. I loved the girls state first school and have been very happy with their new school.
It’s not perfect, there are niggles and things I’d change but I can’t say I’ve ever been ‘infuriated’ by them at all.
Ferrying kids around to extra curricular is just part of being a parent (if extra curricular is your thing!)

I do feel that if you choose private then you have to mentally accept that that has been your choice and resenting the money you (choose) to spend on it is pointless.
You have to accept that all schools will have things you don’t like or agree with, because for every parent who wants it the way you want it then there’s another parent who wants it a different way.
You have to choose the best fit and get on with it.

@Christmas1988

It’s important in my opinion to grow up mixing with all sorts of different people from all walks of life. You say the children at the current school are ‘so nice’ it might be a shock going into real adult life when only mixed with ‘nice’ children.

I'm never quite sure what this means, really. Do you mean that there's a risk a privately-educated child just won't be able to cope with a conversation with somebody who went to state school? Because that's just bizarre. People can be thick as mince, socially, no matter what kind of school they went to.

Why whould a young person at a state school in Belsize Park be better equipped to get on with a young person brought up on a deprived housing estate in Manchester than someone who went to private school in, say, Manchester too?

I know plenty of people who went from their "leafy suburb" state school to Oxbridge and then into a white collar career without ever encountering economic diversity, and I also know social workers who went to private school and top universities who deal sensitively and helpfully with all kinds of tricky situations in their work every day.

If anything, private schools, especially non selective, often have higher percentages of neurodiversity, and the students learn to be incredibly supportive of their friends who might have autism or other things going on.

Bickles the only criticism of my DC’s state school was the lack of diversity.

Just moved to private after horrendous bullying throughout primary and first 2 and a bit years of secondary and it's the best decision we've ever ever made.

@astoundedgoat
I’m talking more about ‘rough’ kids than less academic children. I went to a very rough school and I believe It taught me more than English and Maths it taught me about life, people with no lunch who lived in council blocks was daily life rather than something you see on the news.
Like I said it’s my opinion not fact!

Wow wasn't expecting much in replies but thank you.

Yes £20k pa per dc should have clarified that. We are in a grammar area so secondaries would compete against those if we stayed in this area.
I think the main things are the school is so so disorganised it does get very annoying. They hardly ever manage to answer any of my queries, things like I'll ask why one of my dc has slipped from A grade two years ago to C in English when they are doing well in everything else and the school set up a meeting to discuss it and then in the meeting tell me they haven't had time to speak to the English teacher but they 'imagine' it's because of XYZ but the reasons make no sense at all and we're not allowed to speak to the English teacher, when you work it's really annoying taking time out to have pointless meetings.

Then things like they'll ask me to bring my dd sports equipment in (my eldest has specialist things for them) and then I'll ring up in the morning saying what time to bring and they say midday. I'll say well I'm working and I though the event starts at 5 and they say well it does but noones here to collect it except midday. So off I go on my hours round trip to school during my lunch break to drop the stuff off only to return at 5 for the event in question.
Would be more helpful if they had told me they could accept the sports gear any other time than midday before the actual day. Especially as the last time I brought it in just before an event it didn't seem to be a problem.
Just things like this over the years grow tiring. Maybe I'm a wimpy parent, faltering already.

Anyway I wonder if I should pay and not expect more or accept that this is better than the state schools for my dc and get on with it all. The grammar schools look good but I have heard of dc struggling when leaving this prep into a grammar or state as well. I don't know. I do feel guilty not wanting to work too much, not have to pay fees and let a state school take over and go on holidays I can only dream of now but I think deep down I'll probably feel guilty if my dc don't like the state schools and I've lumped them somewhere they don't feel good in.