English as second language at school

[mids2019]

I was wondering how being a child of immigrant parents where English is a second language at home i.e. the native language is default fare generally at school where obviously English is the language of academic priority?

Do these children become fluently bilingual or is it a challenge to become adept in English if not exposed to the language to a sufficient degree at home?

@Spycatcher67

The pass rates for Polish are fantastic but in a Brexity town like mine I wonder if that success rate is universally popular?

As for MFL how will a university realistically tell if the A level comes from a native speaker (or from a household where that language is spoken. Even if the A level was from a native speaker will not accepting be discriminatory? Are bilingual applicants cheating the system by applying for MFL degrees?

Interesting list of languages of importance in the future and Mandarin and Arabic are possibly of note. There may be many native Arabic speakers in the UK who could do well at GCSE level but there seems to be diverse opinion on immigration from Arabic speaking nations.

Obviously some languages are more difficult to learn than others. This link contains a list of how many hours it takes a native English speaker to become fluent in various languages:

www.state.gov/foreign-language-training/

As Mandarin is more difficult to learn than Spanish you would need a lower level of proficiency at Mandarin to get the same grade in Spanish at GCSE level.

"As far as I am aware Unis do not accept an A level MFL by a native speaker to be included as one of the 3 A levels needed to gain entry."

And how do they prove who is a native speaker? A child could have a parent who speaks the language but claim they were brought up speaking English. A child could have a father who speaks the language, but claim they always spoke their mother's language at home.

There's a bit of controversy going on at the moment because an English MP of Polish origin spent 22k on Polish lessons for himself. He does already speak Polish, but apparently not quite at native level.

I work in public sector and come into contact with those that don’t speak English frequently. 99 of the time with older adults, their children speak English and act as an interpreter.

I think it’s commonplace for kids to speak in their parent’s mother tongue at home and also speak English fluently outside of the home.

"Why are these languages prioritised given some of these countries aren't as economically powerful as they once were e.g. Russia?"

Do you think it should all be about economics?
Russian is still spoken by many thousands of people in the Russian Federation and eastern Europe.

"There must be great body of culture and literature associated with middle Eastern, Asian and African countries that could be offered for study?"

I just googled as regards African languages and found this in the Children's Britannica.

"Written literature exists in only about 50 of the approximately 700 to 1,000 African languages. Most of this literature has been produced in South Africa and other former English colonies; writing in African languages was discouraged in the French and Portuguese colonies."

Maybe not so much of an issue for those going to Oxbridge, but for the average English-speaking person learning a non Indo-European language is much more of a challenge. I think this in itself is a good reason to continue to promote French, German and Spanish.

The British Council report suggest the best/most important languages to learn are:

1 Spanish
2 Mandarin
3 French
4 Arabic
5 German

Ok, but if you aim to become fluent in Mandarin and Arabic it's potentially a 10-year journey compared to a much shorter time for Spanish. There's also a shortage of good teachers in those languages.

@Gwenhwyfar

I agree economics shouldn't be the determining factor when it comes to language selection

This does beg the question how do you select languages out of hundreds to prioritise in terms of academic recognition. I think that as a topic is worthy of debate.

It was an interesting point about Africa though this may show how our colonial past has distorted language and literature prevalence.

@Changechangychange

Did SOAS run into financial trouble at some point. It is not a university commonly mentioned in the threads here. Swahili sounds interesting, why choose that?

Not sure how you'd go to easily practise Chinese or Arabic either. I kept going back and forth to France and Germany when I was leaning them. I also ended up living in France in my 20's my sister now lives there permanently as well. I'm not convinced China or Arabic speaking world would always be so welcome to all westerners going back and forth to their countries not to mention all the visa requirements for more lengthy stays.
You'd also never be able to beat immigrant people who easily go back and forth to their home countries on their parents or own passports so (no visa requirements) every year allowing for immersion on a more regular basis than someone with say English heritage only.

I also know that the the Chinese in particular have huge cultural expectations in business and would not hire a westerner over a Chinese person wherever possible and prefer to deal business with Chinese people only. I also know someone who works at a big Arabic bank and he said they much prefer to hire men and Arabic speaking people than western people. So again it's not as simple as just learn a language and reap the rewards.

This thread seems to miss the significance of cultural differences that allow people of any particular background an advantage in learning particular languages.

@goldenboats

What cultural differences are you referring to?

[quote mids2019]@Changechangychange

Did SOAS run into financial trouble at some point. It is not a university commonly mentioned in the threads here. Swahili sounds interesting, why choose that?[/quote]
We had the option to do a language, and I was going to do a three month research project in rural Tanzania, so it seemed like a fun choice. Also SOAS had a reputed or being really cool at the time, and I was excited to take a class there.

Unfortunately the timetabling was a nightmare - I got sent on a placement in Kent for half of the term and missed half of the classes. But I was at about GCSE level by the end of the year. The grammar is tough, lots of cases and noun-adjective agreement to remember.

I get the impression SOAS are more post-grad focused, which might be why it doesn’t come up often.

With modern resources it is much easier to learn a foreign language than it used to be. The Internet gives us so many options: Duolingo, Skype, etc.

My 14 year old son studies Mandarin (writing is the issue with this language). He has been studying for about 9 years now. He has lessons at school, has a 1 to 1 online teacher who is based near Beijing and uses an app. In short conversations he sounds native, can read well, but still struggles with writing.

"Not sure how you'd go to easily practise Chinese or Arabic either. I kept going back and forth to France and Germany when I was leaning them. I also ended up living in France in my 20's my sister now lives there permanently as well. I'm not convinced China or Arabic speaking world would always be so welcome to all westerners going back and forth"

Not so easy to go to France and Germany now either unfortunately.
For Chinese, I'd innocently suggest China Town in any big city, but I suppose a lot of those might be Cantonese or some other Chinese language, rather than Mandarin.
Same issue with Arabic really. Where I live there is a massive Moroccan population so I suppose I could practise Moroccan Arabic/Dairja if I could integrate that community (not so easy I think).
However, I doubt I'd ever get to the stage of being able to practise as I learnt almost nothing in three terms of evening classes as I couldn't pick up the reading.

@mids2019
I am not aware the universities ask about what your parents are! They would clearly know a student from abroad. So a Spanish student applying from Spain should be identifiable. However lots of people from abroad live here. If the father is British it’s likely the child has a British name. They can be native speakers and coached from a very early age. Only the MFL spoken at home. Grandparents visited every holiday. Books acquired in MFL etc. Does Oxbridge know this? Of course not. It’s not just Oxbridge either. Universities that are elite for MFL don’t interview and don’t ask questions.

I would suggest that university departments reflect our neighbours and languages where we had long standing academic ties. We didn’t have any reason to include some languages at universities and there are rather a lot of them, so choices have to be made.

I would agree though that we don’t really know whether many DC would like to study Urdu, Xhosa or Tamil! Most universities stick to fairly mainstream MFL and even these are now restricted. I cannot see that changing soon. You would find it difficult to study Dutch, Hungarian, Albanian, Norwegian and Swedish too!

From the LSE website:

“ LSE values the skills that language acquisition brings and many of our applicants describe themselves as bi, tri or multi-lingual. We do however differentiate between language learning qualifications and those designed for competent language users. Where we have reason to believe a student has significant prior exposure to a language, we may exclude a language learning qualification from any offer we make.

Significant prior exposure to a language may include:

you, your immediate family or your community regularly speak the language during day-to-day life.

you live or have lived in a country where that language is commonly spoken.

you are or have been educated in that language.”

@TizerorFizz

So is the application to do MFL at leading universities a fair process?

I would imagine given the success of Polish at GCSE from children of Polish heritage there may be scope for university level education in Polish?

@spycatcher67

In reality how can the university prove any of those criteria? Make students bring in their parents and interview them?

Maybe the LSE are hoping applications are made in good faith?

There was a pp who told of German national teachers who created the perfect environment for their child to get into Oxford to study ...... German

My understanding is that the better universities want students to have studied 3 rigorous subjects at A level to prove they are capable of managing the pressure at university.

If a native speaker were to take A level MFL in their own language then this may mean they had taken an easier option and may not have proven that they are capable of undertaking study at a top uni.

At my son’s school I fill in a form every couple of years asking what languages are spoken at home. Maybe this information could be used by unis?

I have no first hand experience of this, but was sure I had read it somewhere and The LSE website does back this up,

“@TizerorFizz

So is the application to do MFL at leading universities a fair process?”

I mean that this would count as one of their 3 A levels to enter uni, not whether they would be allowed to study their native language at uni. I have no knowledge of the latter.

LSE are not a powerhouse of MFL study. I’m not sure they offer standard undergrad degrees in MFL. They attract a very international student body and I’m not surprised many are bilingual.

I cannot see how these universities check anything. If was me who told you about the German teachers. One is German. The mum. Of course you can hide this. No one asks for the info. It’s very easy enough to coach them if your child is bright enough. It makes it much harder for others to shine. Having said that, mathematicians coach in maths and how often do the DC of doctors and vets do exactly the same as their parents? It’s easier for them to absorb what’s necessary and gain work experience and an advantage.

@mids2019
Polish is offered at UCL. So students who meet the entry criteria can apply. I cannot see any reason why a uk Polish speaker with Polish parents couldn’t apply. My friend is 1/2 German. She did German at uni. No questions asked.

Once again, I am only referring to the A level being used as part of the entry requirement, not whether they can study the subject at the uni.

LSE was the first and only website I checked.

@TizerorFizz

I agree that parents can give advantage to their offspring in a number of ways e.g. maths or music tuition.

However is it another level of advantage being immersed in a foreign language from a young age? The restrictions put forward by the LSE certainly makes it clear they view it as a concern (they would not put a similar statement out about Maths or Economics for instance)

I mentioned before it may seem rather redundant to learn a language your already fluent in but if you get a degree from the LSE surely that would be sensible from an employment point of view?

Well can you get a degree in French or Spanish from the LSE? I’m not sure you can. Their language centre seems to offer language courses but not MFL degrees. But I could be exploring their courses incorrectly. However it’s not a MFL powerhouse.

I do rather agree that learning a MFL from birth puts a DC at a strong advantage. However they also need to get the other A levels to go with the MFL one. Some universities require AAA and others are far less bothered. Interesting that Polish/Eastern European Studies at UCL is ABB. much lower than lots of their courses. That’s pretty much the situation for MFL everywhere.