English as second language at school

[mids2019]

I was wondering how being a child of immigrant parents where English is a second language at home i.e. the native language is default fare generally at school where obviously English is the language of academic priority?

Do these children become fluently bilingual or is it a challenge to become adept in English if not exposed to the language to a sufficient degree at home?

@mids2019

Thank you for the replies.

Why is it relatively difficult to get top grades in say French and German at GCSE if we are naturally adept at foreign languages?

Because languages are taught very very poorly in the England.

I moved to the UK when I was eight, I didn’t speak English and my parents didn’t speak English at home even though my mother could speak English. I was fluent (as in, the same fluency of an eight year old) within a term of school. Written English obviously takes longer and as you can see my written English still needs some work.

We studied German at my secondary school, we had four hours a week, well less really, in an hours lesson you really only have 45 minutes of learning time when you consider settling the class, register, explaining tasks, packing away at the end etc. Where as I was essentially having English lessons for five and a half hours a day at school, I was then having English lessons if I watched TV, listened to the radio, played with friends, completed homework, read a street sign etc.

If you have a high level of exposure to a language you learn it fairly well. My husband has Swedish as a first language, he has started using it at home much more and I’m picking up enough to hold a basic conversation and to generally understand what he is saying. My six year old is picking it up very quickly as he doesn’t have a haggered old brain like me.

It depends on the dc’s age and how resilient they are. I would say dc under 6 are more likely to become 100% bilingual. My mum started aged 5 and is 100% bilingual and was a straight A grade student.

It also depends on whether the dc mainly socialises with native English speakers in and out of school. More exposure to a country’s language and culture will make learning easier.

@Kokeshi123 If a child of school age is exposed to a completely new language, it will typically take a couple of years for them to be 100% up to speed---and then, typically, another couple of years after that to catch up with the academic side of things fully. That's for a typical language.

Depends on the child’s age. If she is learning the new language at the same time as others in her class are learning to read (3-5 years) then she might be totally fine after 1-2 years and no longer needs to be an ESL/EAL student. She might be a confident speaker and doesn’t struggle with school work. If the child mainly socialises with native speakers then she’ll pick the language up even more quickly.

Interestingly one of the aims of aims of modern language degrees at the University of Cambridge is to give the ability of speaking a language to a bear native abilify.

This suggests that children of Russian immigrants working Russian fluently in their household have an ability near to that of a Cambridge graduate.

How do you separate educational achievement from language environment when it comes to assessing language as an academic subject?

Moved to the UK at 15, couldn't speak English.

2 years later I completed all GCSEs (8 with grades C or above, inc. maths and English), then college, then uni.

Have a good career now, speak both languages. Spelling is immaculate in both languages (bit of a grammar police ) Very faint accent when spoken in English. I'm average brain-wise definitely not an Einstein

If a child of school age is exposed to a completely new language, it will typically take a couple of years for them to be 100% up to speed---and then, typically, another couple of years after that to catch up with the academic side of things fully. That's for a typical language. For Japanese (the language which children have to master here), it is actually even longer, because our writing system is extremely difficult.

I'd like to see a reference for this, it's possible the second language has an influence but children entering education in the UK are normally fluent within 6 months.

They will not have the same vocabulary as an adult because children don't have the same vocabulary as adults in any language.

There are some quite inspirational stories on here.

Is being bilingual an academic achievement or simply a product of the language environment you were brought up in?

I am quite jealous of all those that have mastered two languages (will never be me I am afraid)

I as intrigued looking at the language offerings at "elite' universities that they 're somewhat limited to Europe. Should we extend degrees to cover Asian languages (Indian, Pakistani, Chinese) as there is a rich culture in this contonet? Chinese especially may be important given its economic growth.

One of the issues I have with languages as an academic pursuit is that as no school or university children offer all languages it will seem some languages 're lesser than others in some respect despite possibly being more challenging to gain ability in.

I feel that there is something a little disquieting about middle class, middle England students learning Spanish at Oxford and it being looked on as. phenomenal intellectual achievement while a poor South American immigrant would not have their fluency in Spnishh looked on in such a manner.

Speaking as a teacher, I think there are some cultural factors to think about too. Lots of immigrant families value education highly and are extremely supportive of their child's education which also helps.

@Nillynally

As a teacher and speaking specifically about English as a subject would you advocate the use of English in the home of English is a second language?

There seem to be some posters that suggest the use of the non English language at home is beneficial because of the academic advantages gained from being bilingual.

I'd like to see a reference for this, it's possible the second language has an influence but children entering education in the UK are normally fluent within 6 months. They will not have the same vocabulary as an adult because children don't have the same vocabulary as adults in any language.

I said "100% up to speed" not "fluent."

There is "superficial fluency in everyday language" and then there is "being able to manage more difficult skills at the same level of everyone else." I gave the example of describing a book that one is reading as an example of the kind of task I am thinking of. It takes a couple of years (or more) for kids to be fully up to speed with these higher-level tasks. I'm going on what I've been told by people who work with children like this in actual school systems.

They will not have the same vocabulary as an adult because children don't have the same vocabulary as adults in any language.

It's not about having to have the same level of vocabulary as an adult. It's about having the same level of vocabulary as other children their own age. It takes years to build up a strong vocabulary.

Children's ability to learn new languages before puberty is impressive, but please do not underestimate how much time and exposure is acquired, and please remember that "surface fluency" in everyday conversation is not the same as being able to participate in a lively classroom discussion, follow complicated instructions or give a verbal report of something.

In Japan, I'm constantly seeing a string of people who turn up in Tokyo on a whim, and plonk their 9yo (or whatever) in Japanese public school, eagerly chirping that "Children are magic sponges! They learn languages in a few months!!" Then before long they are howling for help as their child starts to struggle badly.

Admittedly, Japanese presents particular challenges because of the difficulty of the writing system. But I've also seen similar issues when kids with a poor level of English are put into international schools. Yes, they can get up to speed, but it takes time. You need to think about how to support them and fill in gaps, especially in terms of vocab and writing skills, and be patient in the meantime. Especially if they are, say, in the later grades of elementary school when they are switched.

Should we extend degrees to cover Asian languages (Indian, Pakistani, Chinese) as there is a rich culture in this contonet? Chinese especially may be important given its economic growth.

I always say to people, if you want to learn a language, learn the one that you have a connection to---either a family/lifestyle/work connection, OR an emotional connection in the sense of "loving the language and feeling interested in the culture."

Trying to predict what languages are going to be useful in the future is a mug's game, IMO.

I remember when learning Japanese was all the thing. Then Japan had its lost decade.

Then it was all about learning Mandarin. However, interest faded pretty quickly as it became obvious that a) Mandarin has a really hard writing system, even for native speakers b) China is far away from the UK and not easy to visit c) China is making itself very unpopular with most of the world (even before COVID) and it's hard for people to feel motivated about learning the language of a country they feel a bit "hostile" towards. Of course, COVID has sent all these trends into overdrive--God only knows when it will become possible to visit China again in a remotely "normal" way. Personally, given the CCP's love of hostage diplomacy and relentless digital surveillance, I would not feel safe visiting China or Hong Kong, and Taiwan is a small island, though a lovely place to visit. Pity, as I have studied a bit of Mandarin and it's such a beautiful language.

French and German have become less fashionable, but France and Germany's domination of Europe seems stronger than ever, and French-speaking Africa may become the new Economic Tiger a few decades from now, who knows? It's all very hard to predict.

@Kokeshi123

I think from a teaching perspective superficial fluency in English should not be acceptable if a child is to flourish academically.

It would be interesting to hear from teachers whether the aim is for functional English acquisition for non native English students or is the bar set higher?

I think the concern would be that an immigrant child aims for the superficial fluency you described but not gain the in depth knowledge of the language to underpin what should be a good academic career.

@Kokeshi123

I agree with you that you should choose a language (or my subject) you have a passion about however with languages is it the case that some are valued more than others?

I was looking at Urdu GCSE and it seems to be offered by a limited number of schools (often in deprived areas) but I am guessing for children with Urdu spoken at home this may be means to get a good GCSE relatively easily.

However you can ponder on the below statements

My child is exceptional academically and is now studying Spanish t Oxford with the aim of becoming as fluent as. a native speaker. I am sure they will go on to great things.

My child is academically average but is absolutely fluent in Urdu with a 9 a. GCSE. I hope the GCSE is accepted widely by society as a an indication of intellectual ability but I don't know if it will.

There does seem to be a bias in our language education system.

Good point about Mandarin and it is interesting how politics filters into education. I accept it must be a challenging language but should we put off learning a language because of the country's politics. For instance Russian can be learnt at Oxford but Russia isn't saintly with regard to international relations currently.

@Kokeshi123

I'd like to see a reference for this, it's possible the second language has an influence but children entering education in the UK are normally fluent within 6 months. They will not have the same vocabulary as an adult because children don't have the same vocabulary as adults in any language.

I said "100% up to speed" not "fluent."

There is "superficial fluency in everyday language" and then there is "being able to manage more difficult skills at the same level of everyone else." I gave the example of describing a book that one is reading as an example of the kind of task I am thinking of. It takes a couple of years (or more) for kids to be fully up to speed with these higher-level tasks. I'm going on what I've been told by people who work with children like this in actual school systems.

They will not have the same vocabulary as an adult because children don't have the same vocabulary as adults in any language.

It's not about having to have the same level of vocabulary as an adult. It's about having the same level of vocabulary as other children their own age. It takes years to build up a strong vocabulary.

Children's ability to learn new languages before puberty is impressive, but please do not underestimate how much time and exposure is acquired, and please remember that "surface fluency" in everyday conversation is not the same as being able to participate in a lively classroom discussion, follow complicated instructions or give a verbal report of something.

In Japan, I'm constantly seeing a string of people who turn up in Tokyo on a whim, and plonk their 9yo (or whatever) in Japanese public school, eagerly chirping that "Children are magic sponges! They learn languages in a few months!!" Then before long they are howling for help as their child starts to struggle badly.

Admittedly, Japanese presents particular challenges because of the difficulty of the writing system. But I've also seen similar issues when kids with a poor level of English are put into international schools. Yes, they can get up to speed, but it takes time. You need to think about how to support them and fill in gaps, especially in terms of vocab and writing skills, and be patient in the meantime. Especially if they are, say, in the later grades of elementary school when they are switched.

So no reference then?

What do you actually mean by, "up to speed" ? It's fairly meaningless with regard to language learning.

Comparing a child arriving in Tokyo at age 9 is totally different to a 9 year old ending up in a British city.

Japan has a reputation as one of the most mono cultural countries in the world. A 9 year old foreign student may well be the only non Japanese student in the school.

Most British cities of any size will have schools with children who are multilingual and from different cultural backgrounds. The school is highly likely to employ an ESL teacher and have an ESL policy.

Many comprehensive schools find very few pupils enjoy languages or want to do them. I agree that some would be better off offering Urdu! However getting a gcse in your native language in an exam designed for non native speakers doesn’t say very much.

I would also say the same about native German, Spanish and French speakers who also skew the exam results in this country. I know of two German teachers (one was German) who taught their children German from birth snd tutored them for Oxford. As both dc were bright, they were a shoe in! However are they really as bright as those who didn’t learn any language until they were 11 and at secondary school with no parental help at all? Most DC in the latter situation give up. Even the ones who, with a bit of effort, could be very good.

Private schools tend to be better at teaching languages and more of their DC do MFL degrees. Also don’t forget degrees should encompass literature and culture. They are not all about language acquisition and translation. The student has to study a lot more besides this at an elite university.

I also find on MN that students say they don’t want to study literature and only want translation. Or they want more than joint honours. So breadth rather than depth. This doesn’t help explore any culture and the year abroad is diluted. However we don’t value other cultures and many are happy to think more is better. Personally I disagree. Anyone who gets to an elite university to study MFL when they have no connection with the language and only learned it at secondary school should be applauded and recognised. No one has to declare background or teaching from age 1 in a MFL. I think they should! They have had a huge advantage.

@mids2019

Thank you for the replies.

Why is it relatively difficult to get top grades in say French and German at GCSE if we are naturally adept at foreign languages?

You need to be immersed in language. Best way to learn it. I lived abroad and learned a language in a year. Studied another language from 13 to 20 and was never fluent. Proficient, not fluent.

Vocabulary is a fascinating one. We had a German colleague (moved to the UK for university) study accountancy with us. We had a German client so she was obviously sent over…and discovered that she didn’t know any of the specialist vocabulary in German. Shouldn’t have been a surprise if anyone had thought it through but none of us did.

@Tizerfizz

I think you have summarised my thoughts on this rather well.

You state that gaining a GCSE in a language designed for non native speakers when native themselves may not be a huge achievement but the reality is that they still have a 9 or an A star to stick on their CV!

The example of the German teachers tutoring their German speaking children to Oxford is enlightening and to my mind unfair. I agree the cultural and literature aspect of the degree are import but couldn't these aspects be taught in English given the ability to speak fluently in a language is a function of your family background as well as intellectual ability.

It is interesting children do not want to do MFL but the children of immigrants are in effect learning an MFL by default as they communicate with their parents. I would imagine they would be fluent not because of an inherent desire to learn the language but simply because they have to.

I think there is a disconnect in perception of second languages where we put a premium on English speakers learning MFL to a reasonable standard but seem to neglect the ability of immigrant children to speak a second language fluently.

I think that offering Polish, Urdu etc in inner city comps may be a mens to improve GCSE grades and acknowledge the child's ability in a second language.

I think you are correct about offering exams to the native speaker children and some private schools do this. What I do find interesting is that there are many MFL grads who come from bilingual families and have a parent from Germany, France, Spain etc. I disagree that a child from Argentina speaking Spanish would be looked down upon. Spanish is available in nearly every secondary school so they would have ample opportunity to flourish in that language. However they would need to accept the cultural and literary side to a degree and have the other GCSEs and A levels to back up their application. Many schools would see that child as a possible MFL student.

Not so with African or Asian languages one suspects! We have a lot of people here who are fluent in them who originate from the relevant countries. So maybe that’s seen as normal here? To be bilingual in English and their cultural language?

@TizerorFizz

If you take an example of a Romanian looking to do a GCSE in the Romanian language I think unfortunatly there may be negative opinions.

Why is it only private school children that are offered a GCSE in their native toungue; should this not be offered to state pupils as well especially Eastern European and African languages ?

I agree that at degree level there should be a significant level of culture and literature in there. One thought: if you are from Spain and apply to study Spanish at Oxford as an international student to become fluent in Spanish I presume this can be done which seems a little odd.

Similarly if you write on a personal statement that you would be a good applicant for an MFL as you were brought up in a bilingual household and are already fluent would this be acceptable? (Given part of the function of the degree is to achieve fluency)

Why is it only private school children that are offered a GCSE in their native toungue; should this not be offered to state pupils as well especially Eastern European and African languages ?

State schools do offer this, we all sat an Urdu GCSE.

@mids2019

Thank you for the replies.

Why is it relatively difficult to get top grades in say French and German at GCSE if we are naturally adept at foreign languages?

I think we aren’t very good at teaching languages here. I speak a reasonable level of Spanish but felt my grammar could do with some help so I enrolled in a class that was supposed to be Advanced. The other people in the class certainly did have a better standard of Grammar then me but most of them could hardly speak Spanish and even the ones who could had really bad accents (as did the teacher) I appreciate that people need to know the basics but surely being able to hold a conversation at a higher level is more useful than being able to conjugate some obscure tense that is hardly ever used?

@mids2019 do state schools not offer native language gcse anymore? My state school did.
I also got an A in gcse French and German but am english. But that was in 2002. Think things have gone downhill because resources are being stretch to capacity now.

@Simonjt

Why is it only private school children that are offered a GCSE in their native toungue; should this not be offered to state pupils as well especially Eastern European and African languages ?

State schools do offer this, we all sat an Urdu GCSE.

Agree. A school in my area offers French and Punjabi as language options for GCSE.

There's definitely a snobbery with language. I remember it being seen as quite something for a child to be able to speak more than one European language, really seen as a positive. But this is less the case with Asian/African languages. People don't really think it's special. I think it might be a class/racism thing - non Euro immigrants are all assumed to be poor/working class even though people who have the means to move countries are often well educated. This is often reflected in their attitudes to school for their children.