Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Education

Join the discussion on our Education forum.

English as second language at school

148 replies

mids2019 · 08/01/2022 14:36

I was wondering how being a child of immigrant parents where English is a second language at home i.e. the native language is default fare generally at school where obviously English is the language of academic priority?

Do these children become fluently bilingual or is it a challenge to become adept in English if not exposed to the language to a sufficient degree at home?

OP posts:
Dilbertian · 08/01/2022 23:50

I'm more fluent in English than in my mother tongue.

I could already read English when I started school. I started in Y1 and my parents had taught me to read so that I wasn't disadvantaged. I could read English better than I could speak it at the time, and I was ahead of my classmates in English reading and comprehension.

By the time I started secondary I was more fluent in English than in my mother tongue.

Gwenhwyfar · 08/01/2022 23:52

@SortMyHouse

23:43Gwenhwyfar

If you knew anything about India and Pakistan, you would know language, religion and culture is very much intertwined!

Every immigrant from India has their own languid and their own religion and their own culture!
They aren't going to forget them because they moved to UK!

You don't have a point because you don't even understand.

WTF? There is no need for such an aggressive post. The thread is not specifically about India anyway.
SortMyHouse · 08/01/2022 23:55

23:52Gwenhwyfar

You were the one that pointed out Indians do better so I gave my personal experience.

Then you went onto say it's got nothing to do with language!!

People that have respect for their culture don't speak a foreign tongue in their own home. So language is the essence of this debate.

Dilbertian · 08/01/2022 23:56

@mids2019

Thank you for the replies.

Why is it relatively difficult to get top grades in say French and German at GCSE if we are naturally adept at foreign languages?

Because languages are taught far too late in UK schools, and often without any effective exposure to the natural rhythm and flow of the language.

Children have massive capacity to learn languages, and they don't have to be unusually academic to do so. But by the time they turn 11, many thinking patterns are fixed and it's much harder for them to exercise the flexibility they need to think in a different way.

Gwenhwyfar · 09/01/2022 00:00

@SortMyHouse

23:52Gwenhwyfar

You were the one that pointed out Indians do better so I gave my personal experience.

Then you went onto say it's got nothing to do with language!!

People that have respect for their culture don't speak a foreign tongue in their own home. So language is the essence of this debate.

I said it has nothing to do with which language is spoken at home in the sense that academic success does not seem to be related to speaking English at home or not.
Kokeshi123 · 09/01/2022 00:05

I am not in the UK, so can only talk about bilingualism in general terms.

Children can pick up superficial fluency in a language relatively quickly. However, being able to (say) function in a playground game, is not the same as being able to, say, describe how an electronic circuit works, or be able to talk about a book they are reading and give a verbal description of what it is about and what they like about it. And that is even before you get to the literacy side of things--being able to read and write at the same level as everyone else.

If a child of school age is exposed to a completely new language, it will typically take a couple of years for them to be 100% up to speed---and then, typically, another couple of years after that to catch up with the academic side of things fully. That's for a typical language. For Japanese (the language which children have to master here), it is actually even longer, because our writing system is extremely difficult.

In school, a typical task might be, let's say, reading a passage about how the water cycle works and then answering questions about the passage, using full sentences. To do this task, a child will need to have a decent level of vocabulary, including all sorts of words that are not used in everyday conversation with other kids, meaning that they are not just going to magically "pick up" this stuff from playing with other children and so on. They also need to learn English's complicated spelling system in order to read, and they need sufficient practice to enable them to read easily and at speed; if you are having to slowly sound out each word, it becomes hard to make sense of the meaning of what you are saying. You then need to activate all of this (spelling, vocabulary) in order to do written work correctly in English.

All of the above is describing the kind of situation where a child comes to the UK at a later age and needs to learn English from scratch.

If a child has grown up in the UK and gone to playgroups and so on, then it is a bit different; they will obviously be fluent in spoken English before they get to school. That said, if a child is not hearing English at home, they can sometimes have gaps with vocabulary. This is where the school system becomes really important. A good school system which focuses on building up a strong vocabulary for all children is invaluable for those who do not speak English at home.

England, Scotland and Wales are very unusual internationally, in that children who speak another language at home do about as well as those who speak English at home, which suggests that their education systems are doing a very good job in general; in most countries, children who speak other languages at home tend to be at a significant educational disadvantage.

Kite22 · 09/01/2022 00:08

@mids2019

I was wondering how being a child of immigrant parents where English is a second language at home i.e. the native language is default fare generally at school where obviously English is the language of academic priority?

Do these children become fluently bilingual or is it a challenge to become adept in English if not exposed to the language to a sufficient degree at home?

It depends on the age they are when they start, and their prior experience - a 15 yr old arriving, often traumatised by their experience / reason for flight and journey - is going to be in a very different place from a 3 yr old from a secure British home starting Nursery for the first time. Both are likely to pick up English very quickly, through being immersed / surrounded by it throughout the day at school and then sometimes through watching films / TV / listening to music / watching sports etc in their free time.

Young children are very adept at picking up the language around them though. I've worked with several pre-schoolers who are fluent in 3 languages, with only occasional mistakes with grammar....as many other 4 yr olds make too. There are thousands of dc that translate for parents who have migrated to the UK and not found learning English anywhere near as easy.

SortMyHouse · 09/01/2022 00:11

00:05Kokeshi123

It's not the education system.
It's the immigrant kids immigrant parents getting them extra tutoring.
Please don't give the credit of our parents hard work to the institutionally racist state schools.

EileenGC · 09/01/2022 00:19

I grew up trilingual. Same as @Dilbertian, I’m more fluent in Spanish (not what I learnt first), than in the language that my mother actually spoke to me from birth. It’s my main language now as an adult, and the one I think in. I started learning Spanish and Catalan when I started preschool, was fluent within a month. Kids just pick up languages that fast. I now speak 7 languages in total, 5 of them to native/business proficiency level.

Oh and to correct a previous poster, Catalan isn’t a dialect. It’s a different language to Spanish. It has similar roots and grammar, but that doesn’t make it a dialect. Nobody would say Italian was a dialect of French. Or Irish or Welsh a dialect of English.

Kokeshi123 · 09/01/2022 00:23

It's the immigrant kids immigrant parents getting them extra tutoring.

Bollocks. "Immigrants" don't form a homogenous block who all do things the same way, in spite of coming from really different cultural backgrounds.

Some cultures are tutor-happy, some aren't (you won't see much tutoring among the Roma, for example). Yet kids from all kinds of EAL groups in the UK do relatively well compared to their equivalents in most other countries.

All countries are institutionally racist to a greater or lesser extent (human nature), but immigrants to the UK have a pretty easy time compared to most other countries.

In Scandinavian countries, in Germany, in France, in Spain, immigrants' children face a much more difficult time in the education system--take a look at the stats if you don't believe me. Huge gaps. Even when the parents are committed to their child's education. In the States, EAL and ESL kids also do significantly worse on average, though it depends significantly on background: first gen Hispanic immigrants' kids, Hmong and so on do worse than the national average, those from East Asia generally do better.

Don't even get me started on what I've seen in the various countries of East Asia, where bicultural and immigrant families are routinely disrespected, are told to "stop speaking your language at home" again and again, or have their children automatically put into "special education" classes for the intellectually disabled rather than given special language-related help.

I am not denying that that UK immigrants can experience racism, but seriously, the UK is probably one of the world's least racist countries. Try living in somewhere like South Korea or Spain and you'll get a really rude shock!

SortMyHouse · 09/01/2022 00:29

00:23Kokeshi123

I don't need to live in one of your soft countries.
India was committing genocide on my minority people in the eighties.
The difference is with the immigrants groups.
The immigrant groups that do well in the UK are Indians and Chinese because of their partners not the schools.
So what other country do you have to compare to these 2 groups and still say it's the UK state school and not their parents?
You're the one spouting B*.

SortMyHouse · 09/01/2022 00:33

Parents not partners

weegiemum · 09/01/2022 00:36

My dc spoke only English at home, but we decided to send them to Gaelic school (Scotland). They all became fluent speakers within 2 years and now as young adults still speak it with each other and friends. School was total immersion, every member of staff apart from the Janitor spoke to the pupils in Gaelic. On a couple of occasions since they left school we've bumped into a teacher and they immediately drop into Gaelic.

sunflowerpants · 09/01/2022 00:50

When I went to school all the EAL were allowed to sit an extra gcse in their language in our school this was mainly Chinese. There were four fluent French speakers and 2 German dc they all sat the gcse french/German alongside me who was raised England. They had that distinct advantage and the dc who were allowed to sit the extra gcse left with 11 instead of the usual 10 so I'm thinking they were actually at an advantage. None of the immigrant dc needed extra help by the end of school either either English.

Kokeshi123 · 09/01/2022 01:00

www.bell-foundation.org.uk/eal-programme/guidance/diversity-of-learners-who-use-english-as-an-additional-language/

migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/educational-outcomes-among-children-english-additional-language-eal/

For actual data, take a look through these reports and similar.

Overall, when averaged out, EAL kids have basically eliminated gaps by 16 for the most partsomething which, as mentions, makes England's edu system very unusual by international standards. But this averaging-out covers a very wide range of diversity. Kids who "come into" English at later ages will still lag behind on average throughout their teens-but they are balanced out by above average grades for those kids who have been bilingual from very early ages. And while EAL kids from some backgrounds are doing well above the national average, EAL kids from other backgrounds are doing significantly worse than average.

Immigrants do not constitute a bloc who all do things the same way, and it is not true as some kind of general rule that "Immigrant families are hard-working people who tutor their kids more than the locals!!"--some groups tend to focus on educational achievement and tutoring, some tend not to.

Kokeshi123 · 09/01/2022 01:03

SortMyHouse, take a look through the data I just posted links to.[

Would it be possible for you to discuss your perspectives on here without being rude to everyone who disagrees with you?

Kokeshi123 · 09/01/2022 01:04

ETA: Because, believe it or not, you are not the only person on here with experience of being a minority group, speaking a minority language, or sending your child to school in a language different to the home language.

SortMyHouse · 09/01/2022 01:05

01:00Kokeshi123

No child regardless of background has ever done well because of a school especially a state school.
It's what happens in their homes that determines success.

SortMyHouse · 09/01/2022 01:07

01:03Kokeshi123

You're the rude one swearing.

Like you said immigrants are not ONE.

So the conclusion is if you've got Indian or chinese immigrants they'll do well wherever they are due to their culture.

Changechangychange · 09/01/2022 01:10

@mids2019

Thank you for the replies.

Why is it relatively difficult to get top grades in say French and German at GCSE if we are naturally adept at foreign languages?

Because most GCSE students are only spending an hour a week learning it?

If we shipped them to France or Germany for two years beforehand, I can assure you most of them would get 9s.

Kokeshi123 · 09/01/2022 01:33

No child regardless of background has ever done well because of a school especially a state school. It's what happens in their homes that determines success.

No, it's a mixture of things. A child of Somali background in the UK will do less well than the average UK child. But they are likely to do significantly better than a child of Somali origin in Sweden or Germany, and that's partly due to different things that the schools are doing.

mids2019 · 09/01/2022 05:54

Really interesting debate.

I wonder who has the greater advantage in foreign language education, a child of a Romanian immigrant, possibly from a deprived community who is immersed in Romanian use at home or an Etonian learning French 2 or 3 hours a week?

For those that are bilingual through background are GCSEs and A level languages easy? I was interested in the post where a teacher criticised a pupil who was bilingual; it could very well be that the poster's ability with the language was greater than their teachers.

There is a great deal of talk of ethnicity in this thread and I was wondering if it is limiting having mainly German and Latin languages as GCSE options?

If a naturally bilingual student with French as a second language wished to study the language at Oxford say so they have a massive advantage over students that have learned French only from a school setting? Is this an educational inequality?

OP posts:
mids2019 · 09/01/2022 05:56

Do they

OP posts:
mids2019 · 09/01/2022 06:02

@Changechangychange

Are language GCSEs an academic accomplishment of is ability mainly due to environment/background?

Your point seems to suggest those with dual (or more) language ability due to their upbringing have a significant educational advantage.

OP posts:
Simonjt · 09/01/2022 06:10

@SortMyHouse

01:00Kokeshi123

No child regardless of background has ever done well because of a school especially a state school.
It's what happens in their homes that determines success.

I grew up in a physically and emotionally abusive household, there at times wasn’t enough food, education wasn’t valued/encouraged, school attendance was only encouraged so no one came knocking on the door.

I performed well at school because the staff supported me, they were the ones making sure we all had breakfast, washing and replacing uniform, driving us home after revision sessions as we didn’t have any money for the bus, supporting us applying for college, paying and arranging for me to attend a university summer school, they even provided a care package to take that had shower gel etc. They recognised how good I was at rugby and helped to pay for my kit and helped to find me a sponsor.

Because of them I achieved A grades at GCSE, because of them I was able to study A-levels, go on to university and become an actuary. Because of them I went on to play rugby professionally at quite a high level, high enough to pay a fairly decent wage.