Ideal size for a primary school?

[TheFoldOx]

We're looking t moving house next year to a new area. Not fixed on the exact location, but obviously schools come into the decision making process. I've found lots of useful data online, and looking at the schools that perform well academically and are also not oversubscribed a nice combination to have), they range in size quite considerably.

Eldest DS is currently at a school of nearly 300, with three classes for every two school years (i.e. three mixed y1/y2 classes etc). Possible primaries when we move are all smaller, ranging from 180ish (so 25 per year) through to the very small, 30-40 in the whole school.

Clearly there are advantages and disadvantages to both larger and smaller schools. More personal attention in the small schools, but less choice of friends, limited extra-curricular activities etc. If you have experience with the smaller end, how did you and you children find it? pros and cons? Would you choose that size of school again?

@viques surely the workload must be somewhat smaller with a smaller class? Bit easier to teach to the different levels when there's less children? When I think to how it must have been for the teachers in my primary school trying to teach year 5 and year 6 in the same class of 30 (not sure why years were combined because it was a 2 form entry with plenty of children), it definitely sounds simpler here.

Mine have been through larger infant/junior schools. There is educational benefits in non core subjects as have specialist teachers for PE, music, foreign languages and computing. I think this should give a better teaching experience than from a multi discipline teacher. My Mum taught at another junior school and I know she found languages and music more challenging.

The larger school also benefits from a lot of extra curricular opportunities and also more likely to have better wrap around care.

My eldest has also just moved to secondary which has gone very smoothly. I think it would have been a much bigger adjustment to come from a small school.

I have never felt in either the infants or the juniors that my children have been an anonymous number. They have felt part of a caring community that have nurtured and educated my children. I.dont have experience of small schools to contrast with though

MN has this real aversion to small schools - but I moved my kids from a 2 form entry to a 15 per year group, two year groups per class school at the start of this year. They needed it - the combination of Covid and a really awful teacher who didn't believe in SEN and was just filling in her last year before retirement had absolutely battered the heck out of DD2 who had basically lost the entire previous year being yelled at for untidy handwriting. DD1 was coasting along doing the bare minimum (very bright child) she could get away with - although she did have a decent teacher. The Head... well grown adults say that there's only one thing about that school that scares them - and it's the Headteacher! Not a pleasant lady - we had ignored our initial worries and let them transfer there (junior school) to stay with their cohort, but it was totally the wrong place for them. After a year of no SEN support and bullying - DD2 was a massive massive ball of anxiety.

So we moved them - not so much school size that was the factor but school places (DD1 has a freakishly big cohort that year - the TV must have been crap so lots of places were full) and then again the Head's personality and willingness to engage with us. So we ended up at the tiny school (it's got no ability to expand further - listed building, very very constrained site in terms of terrain and access) and it really has just repaired DD2's confidence so much and she's starting to relax into herself a lot more - small year group but they really are very accepting of her SEN and differences. DD1 has taken a bit more time to settle (but she was going to have a rough year anywhere this year as her best friend's left the area and they were incredibly bonded) but the class teacher has supported her and she's a lot more settled than she was - both love when the classes combine to do stuff working across the entire key stage from time to time and the Y5/6 mix in DD1's class has really spurred her on academically - she has gone from being convinced she's terrible at maths to realising she can do the year above's challenge tasks and so she MUST be really good at the subject! It's also gone a good way to repairing the destroyed home-school relationship between us as a family and school after the way the last place treated us all (I would wake up crying over some of it for a very long time). Head is approachable so parents can bring concerns to him and the school are very happy to work WITH families in terms of SEN and if we already have something that works they'll put it into place in school - rather than viewing their families as the enemy.

I also taught previously in both tiny and large for the LEA schools - would take a smaller school - even with mixed year groups - any day.

Sorry I've not replied before now, but thank you to all of you who've taken the time to share your thoughts. It seems there's a real range of views, with an overall preference for the medium-larger primary school.

Some of your schools sound enormous - where we're looking to move to, the largest of the 34 schools (yes, we're looking at quite a large area at the moment) - has 339 pupils, with a mean size of 137 and a median of 108. Of the probables at this stage, largest is 188 pupils, mean is 68 and median is 55. So I guess the term "large" needs to be viewed in perspective.

I certainly agree that the overall feel of the school, the approach of the head teacher, and parents' views are all vital elements, though of course impossible to judge in this forum.

Wow under 100 really isn't worth considering if you have other choices. But yes of course visit and see if you like the feel, watch the children play etc.

Also remember size isnt the only consideration, but do think about an 11 year old child as well as a 4 year old there!

@WoodenReindeer, size is only one of a great many factors, but it's one we can discuss here a bit easier than some of the intangibles, or details of individual schools. We'll certainly base the final decision on the full range of details, and you're right to mention that a choice is for several years, and in our case for two children who are quite different from one another in character.

Could you say a little more about why you'd not consider a school under 100 pupils? Interested to hear your thoughts.

My DC go to a big school - 3 classes per year group and generally oversubscribed so 90+ per year and they have a nursery of another 20 kids. We really like it.

The school has a really stable group of staff, my DD in yr 6 knows all the teachers and support staff and my DS in yr 2 is also well known by the staff that he comes into contact with. They have permanent full time learning mentors and counsellors and dedicated PE teachers, music teachers and languages teachers. The range of after school clubs and enrichment activities is good. The wrap around care is well staffed. The school has big sports pitches, two halls for indoor sports, drama etc, a big library and two seperate additional buildings for music and extra activities. I know the move to secondary can be tricky but I hope coming from a big, bustling, active and diverse school will help.

I wouldn't even consider sending my DC to a school with less than 30 kids per year group tbh. It sounds horribly claustrophobic.

We moved and my dc went from a 210 child primary which also had an on site preschool to a school with 80 kids. It was a disaster. They hated it. After one academic year I moved them again to the biggest local school there was - 150 kids and this was the right fit for them.
I would not consider a small school again.

Thanks, @CheshireCats. What was it that they hated?

Two form entry. Teachers can bounce ideas, more kids=more choice of friends, often better funding, more opportunities for the children

@TheFoldOx There just weren't enough kids of their age. Also mixed year group classes. On of my DD went into a year group of 15 where there was only 3 other girls. Two were already close friends and she didn't click with the other one. She was lonely.
Also, my Dc were used to lunchtime clubs, after school clubs, school productions etc. There was none of this in their new school. Because there was much less staff to do these things.
Their new school was so small, it didn't even have a hall for assembly or lunch. They had to clear a classroom for this.
Overall, their world got a lot smaller, and they were very unhappy. I agonised about moving them again, but it was absolutely the right thing for them. I still feel guilty they went to 3 Primary Schools, but at least we got it right in the end.

Just to give you my perspective of a small primary, as many people are very negative about them.
DD (7) attends a tiny village primary. There are 7 students in her year & she is in a mixed year class (R, Yr1 & Yr2). There are less than 50 pupils in the entire school & only two classes. When we were looking at schools, the idea of such a small school seemed incredibly odd & I couldn't understand how it would work. After seeing our standard 1 form entry catchment school I was very underwhelmed, so decided to visit the tiny village school which is out of catchment but only 5 min drive on country lanes.
It was & is wonderful! Yes, it doesn't have wraparound care, tons of clubs, a vast library, IT suite or even a hall but what it does have are amazing teachers, a head who is wonderful & a fantastic school community. All the children know & play together. They do welly walks & forest school every week; swimming & PE at the local sports centre weekly, as well as on the school field & village green. They can do whole school trips as only need one coach. We have a very active PTA that organises fun events like parties, Christmas presents & a Santa visit, ice lollies in the summer etc & the Head does lots too. We have some sports clubs after school, & due to the size of classes every child gets a go, not just the most able. They attend sports events locally & join with other village schools to form larger teams.
In terms of dealing with childrens differing abilities, if they are overachieving the teachers can sit them with the year group above & give them more advanced work & likewise with those having difficulties. The teacher & TA ratio is 1 teacher & 2 TAs to classes of under 25 pupils.
With regards to friendships my DD has friends across the years. She has flourished there, loves it & so do we. All the parents think it's the best school locally. And when I talk to friends with children at other local schools & find out they don't do half what our school do/provide despite being bigger,
And for those questioning it's financial stability, it's been going for over 100 years. There are hundreds of small & tiny schools across the country, & yes I'm sure some are rubbish, but many are not & the students in them go on to succeed in life just like their non-rural counterparts.
I'm so glad we went for it. So not all small schools are in financial difficulties, don't offer opportunities & are awful for friendships. Honestly, visit as many as you can & go with your gut.

Being one of 7 in reception is very different to being one of 7 in year 6!

Ds primary had 1form years & it was awful for kids like dc who had problems fitting in. Had I had the chance again I would opt for a bigger school with 2 or 3 classes per year.

My sons are in a smaller class size. One is reception 6 in class. Other is in year 2 14 in class

For me smaller class sizes are better for us as my oldest is very bright and the school has neutered him. He can read 3 years above his age and is already hitting end of year targets.

The younger is in reception. As he has a smaller class he can do more things and can have more encouragement to ty new things.

I don’t have personal experiences with my children but I can complete the experiences that me and dp had growing up. I went to a large primary school with 2 classes per year group. My dp went to a tiny primary school where there was only 11 children in his class. I had hardly any friends in Primary and sometimes was completely on my own while other larger groups played together. Dp, on the other hand, found that all the children in the year group became good friends, despite their differing personalities, as they had no choice but to get along.

I assume some of the examples here of 15 in a class but lots of sports coaching @SilkLabrador are private preps? Having had DC go through and with friends at all sorts of schools, Id say 2-3 forms. Loads more resources, teachers pool ideas, can mix classes if need be, SEN support, staff cover, extra curricular stuff etc. So 60-90 in a year

My daughter is in a lovely one class per year school. The pros are the community feel, very active parents, small scale etc. but I can see that by the time she gets older she’ll be very ready to move on to something bigger. I wouldn’t do anything smaller. There have been questions about the viability of wrap-around, not as many clubs as a bigger school could offer and we’ve been unlucky to have an intake with quite a lot of additional needs. In a two form entry the teachers would be able to mix things up a bit bit.

The replies in this thread show the variety across the country. Some posters consider a single form entry (c.30 per year) primary to be small; for others, including where we're looking to move to, such a school would be considered to be large. A lot of the schools that are on our long list are under 100 pupils in total, and some around 50-60 across the school.

At least 2 form entry if not 3/4. One form entry is too small especially if boy/girl heavy. You really don't want a small secondary school either.

Theres a running theme that 2 form is good though.

Where are you that theres so many s schools? Usually theres a choice of maybe 3!

One consideration that has to be thought about is when you move from primary to secondary school. Having experience of a secondary school with 1750 pupils there is very definitely a difference in those pupils coming from small (less then 201 pupils) and those coming from larger primary schools ( up to 3 form entry ). Those from the bigger primary schools definitely find it easier to settle down in year 7 and that can have a major effect in the future progression through the school.
There does seem to be a bit of confusion about funding. All schools in an LA are now given funding based on a consistent formula, mainly around pupil numbers but also with a set amount for general running of the school. That is £110,000 and is the same for every school whether the school has 30 pupils or 3000. The difference where small schools tend to miss out on funding is that the pupil numbers dictate funding so if it is small there is less funding coming in. This means that funding tends to be much tighter in small schools and it is the inability to do some of the things that a bigger primary school can do that makes a big difference. I would always vote for a bigger primary school.

@WoodenReindeer

Theres a running theme that 2 form is good though.

Where are you that theres so many s schools? Usually theres a choice of maybe 3!

Agree with this. I think most posters have acknowledged that 2 form entry is a pretty good sweet spot. I know most of my teaching colleagues and friends feel similar.

I'm also curious where you're look at area wise that has so many small schools. I'm surprised if there really are so many under 100 pupils in one small area that they have not amalgamated. Even if 2 or 3 joined together the school still wouldn't be particularly large.