Ideal size for a primary school?

[TheFoldOx]

We're looking t moving house next year to a new area. Not fixed on the exact location, but obviously schools come into the decision making process. I've found lots of useful data online, and looking at the schools that perform well academically and are also not oversubscribed a nice combination to have), they range in size quite considerably.

Eldest DS is currently at a school of nearly 300, with three classes for every two school years (i.e. three mixed y1/y2 classes etc). Possible primaries when we move are all smaller, ranging from 180ish (so 25 per year) through to the very small, 30-40 in the whole school.

Clearly there are advantages and disadvantages to both larger and smaller schools. More personal attention in the small schools, but less choice of friends, limited extra-curricular activities etc. If you have experience with the smaller end, how did you and you children find it? pros and cons? Would you choose that size of school again?

My DD was at single form entry school, so ~210 pupils yR-6.
I liked it, but:

• no ability to mix classes if 2 children didn't get along
• less choice of friends for the 'quirky' child
• more chance of sex imbalance (DDs class has 6 boys, 21 girls)
• fewer extra curricular activities (and less competitive teams)

I certainly wouldn't go smaller than 1 form entry.
I'd happily go to 2 form, possibly 3 if they could convince me they would still 'know' my child.

I went to a primary which had mixed years - but they did a full y1 class, a full y2 class then one mixed y1 and y2 class. This meant the higher ability y1 and the lower ability y2 were put together. Worked fine.

My own dc are single form (coincidentally the same school! But they've changed the intake size). It feels a tad small in terms of friendship groups but on the plus size, every single employee knows every single child.

Two form - 60 per year.
I have no scientific basis for my belief! Just feels about right!

@blametheparents

Two form - 60 per year. I have no scientific basis for my belief! Just feels about right!

Agree with this. As someone who has worked in a lot of schools 2 form feels like the right balance to avoid any potential issues that a larger or smaller school presents.

I have professional experience of both large and small primaries and would go for a larger school every time if I were choosing for my DCs.

Don’t get me wrong, many small schools are absolutely lovely - the head and most staff will know each child individually, lovely family feel etc. But along with that comes less money in the budget, often less experience of SEN issues and the obvious one is friendships.

By Yr 6, kids in a small primary are often absolutely sick of each other. If there’s only 15 in your year group, you are thrown together all the time, even if you don’t particularly get on. It often leads to a stressful last couple of years in primary. I would not want that for my DCs. What seems cozy and nurturing in Reception can feel claustrophobic and stifling by Year 6.

70 in the school total so mixed year groups across 4 class rooms currently. Small environment has worked well for both asd dd1 who feels safe and is known by all, and for outgoing Dd2 who loves being the big fish in a small pond!

Disadvantage from my perspective is that there are no breakfast club and minimal after school offerings, which is OK for us but would be trickier for others with different work patterns.

My dd’s school is one form per year and that feels about right - there are enough children in the class to find children with similar interests/personalities but the head knows every child by name, plus there’s no chance of classes being mixed up and ‘losing’ friends to another class.

We have three classes per year approx 26 per class. I love the fact that the school has so many facilities and diversity. My son has asd which wasn't fully diagnosed until primary school started and they were seamlessly able to get him started with extra resource teaching etc . At the end of the day it all depends on the individual school.

DDs have attended 4/5 schools, ranging from less than a 100 children in total to 120 per year.

I found the sweet spot to be 2 classes per year. Small enough to overwhelming, but large enough for a range of opportunities. Although both were lucky to have small classes in reception and Year 1, which was a great start.

The school I work in is one form entry, and I think it ticks all the boxes.

DS1 went from a two form infant school to a three form junior school, and it was too big and overwhelming so we moved him to a very caring two form entry Junior school. I was looking for a very small village school, but chose the two form entry school because it ticked all the boxes. DS was undiagnosed with ASD and would have stuck out like a sore thumb in a tiny school, but was surrounded by a very mixed cohorts, so although he had his issues, so did others.

The HT where I work chose a four form entry school for her DC. I've no idea what her options were, but her DC are very quiet and reserved, so it surprised me.

I guess it's as much down to the school as the size of the school. It think it must be difficult going from a very small primary to a huge secondary, although children all over the country cope with it.

😳 these schools are bonkers huge. Our school is 15 per year and it's wonderful. Children are known personally to teachers across the school.

Huge range of opportunities including professional sports coaching, trips, after school clubs and activities.

@FlamesEmbersAshes

I have professional experience of both large and small primaries and would go for a larger school every time if I were choosing for my DCs.

Don’t get me wrong, many small schools are absolutely lovely - the head and most staff will know each child individually, lovely family feel etc. But along with that comes less money in the budget, often less experience of SEN issues and the obvious one is friendships.

By Yr 6, kids in a small primary are often absolutely sick of each other. If there’s only 15 in your year group, you are thrown together all the time, even if you don’t particularly get on. It often leads to a stressful last couple of years in primary. I would not want that for my DCs. What seems cozy and nurturing in Reception can feel claustrophobic and stifling by Year 6.

Exactly this. 2 form entry seems a good size to me.

@SilkLabrador

😳 these schools are bonkers huge. Our school is 15 per year and it's wonderful. Children are known personally to teachers across the school.

Huge range of opportunities including professional sports coaching, trips, after school clubs and activities.

15 sounds like my idea of hell personally. It's way too small and small classes are prone to friendship issues plus it also means someone is always left out if working in pairs.

Mine have been in primaries totalling 10, 60 and 300 students. They like the smallest the best and feel they’re pushed academically.

My kids are in a school with 90 kids per year but it still feels very community based and nurturing. The teachers know all the kids and parents and lots of opportunities for the kids to make friends. It’s not for everyone though but we live in London so it’s not unusual.

And some of the secondary schools round here are enormous! So going from 30 kids in your year to 300 could feel overwhelming!

Two classes a year gives the school the ability to mix the children up every couple of years to balance needs and personalities.

A tiny school looks great when they’re in reception, but by the time they’re in year 6 they’re sick of each other, and can be hard if there’s no one they gel with.

When we moved house we were offered places at a school with approx 25 pupils (in the whole school) for our DC in year 5 and year 6… I did some pleading with the admissions office, who did some successful pleading with a larger school, phew!

DD's school is 3 classes per year but the classes are really small (her class is just 14 children, the others in her year are a bit bigger) so its a nice balance, maybe around 50 children per school year so not too big and not too small and everyone gets enough individual attention with the small class sizes but still enough children for a variety of friends.

My ds is at a single form entry school capped at 28, but currently only 24 in his class.

It’s perfect for him, we specifically wanted a smaller school because we knew ds would thrive better, and he has.
Think it can depend on the child.

From a teaching point of view two or three classes per year group makes a huge difference and is a good size because :

More money in the school for equipment, extra staff, support staff, specialist teachers eg music, pe, art.
Planning shared between teachers so lessening the load
More chance for teachers to specialise, and cascade knowledge down
More flexibility to tweak if there are personality clashes between children

From a child’s point of view I think there is more chance of finding their tribe, getting access to support, finding a variety of after school activities, having a range of adults to relate to and form relationships with.

From a parents point of view it means not having to dread your child going through Y4 with Miss Trunchball because that is what happens, a decent sized PTA, knowing that if a teacher is off the chances are that initial cover will be met from within the school and if supply staff are called in there will be people in the Year group keeping an eye out.

My DD is in preschool at a 60 pupil school (1 class per key stage). She loves it. She has some mild additional learning needs (speech) and is really well supported and doing really well making friends right across KS1 despite her communication issues. So I think at the younger end small can be an absolutely fantastic choice.

However at the older end of primary I have heard mixed reviews. I have a friend who went to similar sized primary and loved it as she was a high achiever, so from year 5 she was able to follow the year 7 material with the most able year 6 pupils, therefore always felt challenged. Whereas other kids struggle in year 6 when there are so few other kids of the same sex.

@Natsku

DD's school is 3 classes per year but the classes are really small (her class is just 14 children, the others in her year are a bit bigger) so its a nice balance, maybe around 50 children per school year so not too big and not too small and everyone gets enough individual attention with the small class sizes but still enough children for a variety of friends.

How do they finance that? If they are getting about £3750 per child that is barely covering a teachers salary plus a TA . Then factor in the salaries of non teaching staff, other support staff, catering staff, office staff, caretaking.

Then allow for heating, lighting, cleaning, building wear and tear, equipment, consumables, IT etc. If I was the HT I would be having sleepless nights over that budget!!!

I much prefer smaller schools, I just feel the school as a whole becomes a community and thats something I like. I find the very large schools become a bit more anonymous, I like it when most of the teachers know most of the children's names etc. However, I think it does depend on your child and what you think will be best for them.

@viques

From a teaching point of view two or three classes per year group makes a huge difference and is a good size because :

More money in the school for equipment, extra staff, support staff, specialist teachers eg music, pe, art.
Planning shared between teachers so lessening the load
More chance for teachers to specialise, and cascade knowledge down
More flexibility to tweak if there are personality clashes between children

From a child’s point of view I think there is more chance of finding their tribe, getting access to support, finding a variety of after school activities, having a range of adults to relate to and form relationships with.

From a parents point of view it means not having to dread your child going through Y4 with Miss Trunchball because that is what happens, a decent sized PTA, knowing that if a teacher is off the chances are that initial cover will be met from within the school and if supply staff are called in there will be people in the Year group keeping an eye out.

This is a good point as well. Teachers in small schools are often stressed to the max. Teaching is full on as it is but if your teach a mixed year group class, you might be planning for 2 or 3 different year groups every lesson without anyone else to share the planning load. And if there are only 3 or 4 teachers in your school, you will have a Subject Lead responsibility as well - perhaps even two.

I cannot believe that a class teacher - no matter how driven and dedicated - can give the best pastoral support if they are buckling under such a workload.

@viques Not in the UK, I suspect schools are much better funded, class sizes over 25 are considered overcrowded but her class is exceptionally small, possible smaller intake in her year. Her class has several children with additional needs though so needs to be small to function adequately. Imagine if education was better funded in the UK and class sizes could be much more reasonable and teachers less overworked.