Changing schools for sixth form.

[Swedes2Turnips1]

What are the pitfalls of changing school for sixth form? Any advice greatfully received.

frogs - What happens if you want to go and study medicine? Cambridge ask that you study A level chemistry (and maths is listed as useful) - how do you bore for Britain on Medicine as your chosen subject when you haven't previously studied medicine? Similarly, you want to study Philosophy - how do you bore on that when your A level subjects are History, English, Latin and French? I'm sure they must be looking for a general willingness to learn, intellectual sparkle and a bit of excitement about the chosen subject as oppposed to knowledge of it.

Snorkle - Yes, I have heard that state school pupils do better with independent learning than their independent cousins and in fact I think it is true that boarding school pupils do worst of all - having been too long spoon fed.

Swedes, you would be expected to know something about biology even if it's not an actual requirement. Anyone with a genuine desire to do medicine would be expected to have at least read some books on the subject even if they haven't studied biology formally. As frogs says, we are always looking for a spark of genuine academic interest in the subject. Wanting to cure people and having good A levels is just not enough.

Swedes - you and I are of a similar generation. Times have moved on.

You will be expected today to show at interview real knowledge and enthusiasm for your future subject, not just aptitude.

Anna, Agree that's what you need to know, BUT.. for many schools the numbers of children joining for the sixth form are too small for the figures to be statistically significant.

snorkle - sure. But even if only 5-10% of children are joining in the sixth form, if you had ten years worth of information, that information would tell you something.

Anyway, that's what I would ask the headmaster/mistress of any future school

Swedes -- the subject I used to interview on is a medical-related subject, so none of our students had direct experience of it.

The ones that stood out were the ones who had taken the trouble to find out about it, both intellectually and in terms of voluntary work, and could extrapolate from their practical experience to theory. I vividly remember one student who talked most passionately about her voluntary work on a stroke ward, and had clearly become very attached to some of the patients. But when my co-interviewer asked her, "Can you tell us in your own words what you think a stroke is?" it immediately became apparent that it had never crossed her mind to wonder, and frankly of all the medical conditions that could cause you to wonder about brain structure, stroke is right up there at the weird and fascinating end. We need to know that students have the intellectual interest and stamina to see them through three or more years of hard work in an intellectually-demanding discipline, as opposed to those who quite like the idea of reading a particular subject because they think it sounds interesting.

That's the kind of thing I mean by passion and curiosity, and is really not well-correlated with A-level results (since at this level they nearly all have straight As), or with the kind of school a candidate has attended. Nor can you teach it, though you can probably encourage it. But I get the impression you don't really want to hear what I'm saying, so I think I'll leave you to it.

yes, over 10 years should be OK, I was thinking only of a single year which is never a reliable measure anyway. At my school only 4 or 5 joined sixth form each year - meant each individual would count for 20-25% swing in figures if they got to oxbridge or not!! -

It would be worth asking the school for both oxbridge and A level points score broken down on new entrants vs existing pupils over 10 years. It would be interesting to see their response to such a request. I wonder if schools collate such info, the cynic in me reckons they would only divulge it if it wasn't too damning.

Anna - both percentages will be higher than their percentage of A level pupils who go on to Oxbridge. They are both academically selective schools and in order to get into either school in the sixth form you need to get a minimum of 8 GCSEs 6 at A* or A grades - something that only 80% of their pupils achieve (the 20% of pupils who don't get those GCSE results are not Oxbridge bound).

frogs - I am very interested in what you are saying. It is very useful.

lol Tamum at 'wanting to cure people'!

If I had a quid for every time I've heard, "Well, I really want to work with children/like to help people" I could make a serious dent in the mortgage.

swedes - given you know the sixth form entry requirements and the percentage of existing pupils who meet them you can make an informed comparison between the figures - it would give you a measure of the disadvantage (if any) of swapping schools for the sixth form which is what you originally asked about.

If they can and do give these figures, please share them. It would be really interesting to know.

OK - but I'd still ask for the exact figures

Snorkle & Anna - I don't really want to alert DS's current school to the fact that we might be thinking of shopping around for A level.

Okay then, Swedes, in summary I would suggest that changing schools may or may not be the right thing to do, depending on your child's feelings and the profiles of the schools concerned. What I would not do, is to assume that one school must be 'better' because it has a much higher success rate, since this could easily be related to the profile of the pupils or the ambitions of the parents.

What I would do is to look closely at the profiles of all the possible schools for the subjects your ds is interested in. Eg, how many subject specialists do they have, is any A-level teaching done by non-specialists? How many students take each subject and what are the grades like? What subject-related extra-curricular activities do they do? Etc. Go to open days, talk to staff and students and look at the facilities. If one school is clearly inspirational in the area that your ds is going to be doing, then it makes sense to think about moving, if he likes the idea.

Meanwhile, if he's serious about wanting to do Oxbridge in a particular subject, he needs to immerse himself in that topic way beyond the requirements of the curriculum. For example, my dd1 (12) is convinced she wants to read Vet Science at Cambridge, or failing that at Edinburgh(!). She may well end up doing something different, but if she is still interested at 14, I would be encouraging her to think about shadowing a couple of vets, and later doing voluntary work in one of the animal clinic charities, skivvying for a practice nurse, or helping out at the zoo or on a farm, all in addition to reading widely on the subject.

Prospective medical students absolutely need to have done voluntary work in a range of settings to convince the selection panel that they understand what is involved and have the commitment or the stamina to see it through.

English students need to have read a lot of books, seen lots of plays and films, and have serious, informed opinions on them.

In the end, this is the kind of preparation that will get him where he wants to be, assuming he has the ability. Assuming all the schools you're choosing between are good, the choice of school is only ever going to be a secondary factor.

hth

I couldn't possibly even begin to think about making that sort of decision without hard data and the statistics I mention (and I would think of more if it was my child and I was thinking hard about it).

Appreciate that swedes, but you could ask for the info at the alternate school no? Frogs' advice is also good - I think there's a lot you can do to boost his chances regardless of school.

I'm fascinated by statistics, but unlike Anna can function without them. Often I think gut feelings are more reliable.

My need for hard facts and statistics depends on circumstance .

But since here we are talking about schools with their highly measurable GCSE, A-level and Oxbridge / Russell Group entrance success rates (ie statistics), and the child's future largely depends upon those, I'd want the facts

I'd want them from pure curiosity . But whether or not my child would thrive (and so do well) at a particular establishment depends on many, many other factors.

Well, like I said, I'd want the facts in order to begin to think about which school to choose.

But given that the objectives in changing school are very clear in this instance (to improve chances of Oxbridge / Russell Group university acceptance), the facts would tell me a lot.

A bit like if (totally hypothetical, I don't have a boy nor do I live in England) I wanted my son to go to Eton. I would choose a prep school that was a feeder for Eton (ie a high percentage of children moved on to Eton) in order to maximise his chances of getting there.

Not all choices are touchy-feely.

Anna888 - I wonder if Eton list Prince Harry (the A level cheat) in their alumni - he is not a good advert is he? Even Eton have changed their entrance criteria - now it is by academnic test only (no longer is it possible to put your son's name down atbirth

frogs - I am almost embarassed to say that my son doesn't know what he wants to study. I must admit I have been encouraging him to try and keep his education as broad and balanced as possible and not try to be too prescriptive.
Your insight is much appreciated.

"Hallgerda - Some schools are more successful at getting pupils into Oxbridge."

Even the Sutton Trust figures are meaningless without knowing how the application rates differed. The Paschendaale approach to HE entrance works, up to a point: send enough candidates with three A's (minimum) over the top and a few are bound to get through.

Absolutely the worst approach to getting in to Oxford or Cambridge, by the way, is to want to go because of the names. The interviews are brutally effective at weeding out those who aren't really interested in the course.

He is only 15 - He hasn't even decided what A levels to do yet.

A little bit of trivia given that some people have mentioned that it is not really possible to break out individual candidate's A-level results....

The next cohort of sixth formers will be able to get an A* in the A2s (not in AS). That should help separate out the top performers.