Changing schools for sixth form.

[Swedes2Turnips1]

What are the pitfalls of changing school for sixth form? Any advice greatfully received.

It won't affect mine for another decade, but I'd be interested in this too as we will have no choice - no sixth forms on this side of the city.

My older children didn't, but I did and can't really remember any pitfalls. There are always quite a lot of kids who start new at 6th Form, so it's very unlikely your DC would be on his/her own - and there is that whole "we're cool young adults out of school uniform and hey, it's almost like Uni" mindset so I think it's generally a very up-beat time, which would help in terms of slotting in. And with my older kids, there was certainly a re-arrangement of the existing social circles at 6th Form - sudden new groups of friends, etc.
I think you'd have to have the full co-operation of the person involved though, because at that age if they're unwilling to do something as big as that it just won't work.

There can be a problem with things like drama, music, sport etc. Either the newbie isn't picked because existing students get preference so the newbie is upset. Or the newbie is picked and is then resented by those whose noses have been put out of joint.

This is the dilemma. He is currently at an independent school which is excellent - in the Times top 50 - but for some reason is not that good at getting its pupils into Oxbridge and Russell Group universities in spite of excellent A level results. He would really like to go to Cambridge (my bil took him to his old college in the summer). Clearly, I can't get him the A level results he needs - that is up to him. But maybe I can help him increase his chances by going to a more Oxbridge successful school or a State school?

There is a commutable school with preceisely the same fees who manage to get 40% of their boys into Oxbridge (with alarmingly similar A level results).

There is state school on the doorstep. It is a Christian denomination school but (laughably) you don't have to have got God to get into the sixth form - entry is entirely by academic selection. This school have very similar Oxbridge entrance successas his current school. No fees.

I am torn as he is really happy where he is but he is very happy to move.

Surely at that age he has to make the decision for himself?

I changed schools at 6th form and it was fine. And I know plenty of others who have done so more recently without problems. But you have to be motivated to make it work, since you have the issue of finding your place in a new setup as well as getting to grips with your A-levels.

For kids who're fed up with their existing school it can be just the thing, but I wouldn't move him for the sake of it unless he's keen. I think the Oxbridge thing is a red herring -- the university is admitting him, not his school. If he's good enough and plays his cards right, he'll get in, though you may have to put a bit more effort in at home if the school is less geared up for it.

How can you tell whether one school is more successful than another in getting pupils into Oxbridge? One may get more in, but how do you know how many applied? Perhaps the other one encouraged pupils to think about whether the content of the actual course fitted their interests and plans better, rather than to go blindly for prestige.

I do know some people who have moved for sixth form and then not done as well at A level as might have been expected from their GCSE results. I guess there's a risk that you don't settle socially or adapt to the new culture (learning style) quickly enough and then it may affect grades.
On Oxbridge it might be worth trying to understand why the difference. These days, straight A's isn't always enough, so is it that the other school's applicants have more extra curricular stuff on their CVs; that their oxbridge applicants are getting higher raw scores in their A levels (universities see AS module results these days, so it's possible that the brightest kids at the other school are scoring higher at A level, but there are still the same numbers getting A's iyswim); thate there are simply more kids trying for oxbridge at the other school; or that the staff there are simply better at/more familiar with the admissions process & give better advice/references?

Hallgerda - Some schools are more successful at getting pupils into Oxbridge. I don't think that's a disputed fact. There was a Sutton Trust study very recently which highlighted this problem.

"The proportion of university entrants going to Oxbridge from the top performing 30 independent schools was nearly twice that of the top performing 30 grammar schools -- despite having very similar average A-level scores.
At the 30 top performing comprehensive schools, only half the expected pupils were admitted to the 13 Sutton Trust universities, given the overall relationship between schools' average A-level results and university admissions.
At the 30 top performing independent schools, however, a third more pupils than expected were admitted to the 13 Sutton Trust universities, given the overall relationship between schools' average A-level results and university admissions."

snorkle - "or that the staff there are simply better at/more familiar with the admissions process & give better advice/references? "
I think this is almost certainly the case.

40% into oxbridge is seriously impressive. Most schools are pleased if they get a handful in.

The major pitfall is that you are moving to a school where no one knows you. If you stick to the same school, you can hit the ground running in September, ready for your first AS modules in January.

It's not like the old days where you could fritter away L6 and make up for it in U6.

Non-academically, you are unlikely to be given much extra responsibility in a new school, so not much for the UCAS form. If you stay in your old school, you are more likely to be a prefect, house captain etc.

Yes, I would worry that the job of making friends would perhaps come before getting down to some serious work so it could end up being a bit counter productive. Also the alternative fee-paying school is a bit poncey - too socially engineered - whereas his current school has a really good mix of different sorts of pupils.

Well... it seems that switching to the state school gives you no oxbridge advantage and some settling in risk, so although advantageous to your pocket it's overall giving him a less good chance. The alternative private school sounds tempting, but from what you say you don't really like the ethos of it. Also, you'd need to consider the extra travelling time & how much of a negative impact that would bring. Maybe you can offset some of the current schools lack of oxbridge accumen with some homework of your own?

I wouldn't dispute that some schools are better at getting their pupils into Oxbridge than others - however, you would have to look beyond raw numbers admitted in order to see which those were, and whether they were putting too much effort into that particular performance measure against the pupils' long term interests.

It's not clear that the Sutton Trust study looked beyond numbers admitted from each school - what is the meaning of "expected" in the quotation you give? Does it refer to average numbers that might be expected from each school, or to those pupils considered by the school to have a good chance? State school pupils are more likely to take greater costs of particular courses into account in the decision process.

Hallgerda - The Sutton Trust looked at A level scores, applications and admissions over a 5 year period - they are a very well respected charity so I would imagine their research would be thorough and be comparing absolutely like for like.

But surely now that the ceiling on A-level grades is relatively low (in terms of the number of people scoring 3 or more As) it's harder to be sure whether you are really comparing like with like?

Maybe one of the schools is an A-level factory whereas the other has stupendously bright kids who fly through their A-levels and are a shoo-in for Oxford? Neither really tells you where your own child will do best.

I don't see how getting a large number of pupils into the country's best universities could be considered "contrary to their interests".

I also think that comparing the grammar school to public schools is likely to be skewed, since I suspect that even at grammar schools there are a largish proportion of people who think that Oxbridge is somehow not for them.

Again, hard to see how it's possible to be sure you were comparing like with like.

I don't see how getting a large number of pupils into the country's best universities could be considered "contrary to their interests".

It could be contrary to the interests of the ones that don't get in if they are not getting the attention they need to get better A levels or enough attention given to their university applications/choices,

or possibly it could be contrary to the interests of any that do go to oxbridge but then struggle or drop out (a bit like the argument that if you are over-coached for 11+ you might struggle at a grammar).

Snorkle - Oxbridge has the lowest drop-out rate in the country.

I think everyone who applies to Oxbridge is probably good enough, but they are looking for all-rounders. The interview process does that job very well. You get A or A*s for your GCSEs and all As for A level you are fit to apply. Your personal statement probably gets you the interview - the school is probably very good at this. And at the interviews it is down to personality and having a few social skills. You may be brilliant but incommunicative won't get you through the interviews.

I was thinking more of those who are strongly encouraged by their schools to go to Oxbridge, but realise later that they would rather be doing courses that would suit them better (more practically or vocationally based, for instance), or find they just can't stand the place. And those who might prefer to be burdened with less debt at the end.

Swedes2Turnips1, your drop-out statistics presumably don't show enforced subject changes (a friend of mine ended up forced into Philosophy after failing Part IB Maths.).

But it's definitely not zero (I know several). What you need to know is if an overly high percentage of those that do drop out come from independents where they have been over-pushed. I'm not saying they do, but for all I know they might. I have heard that childern from state schools on average do better at uni than those from independents - it's usually put down to them coping better with working independently.

I'm not sure that's true, actually, Swedes, and I've done UCAS interviews, so am speaking from the inside as it were.

There is a level of intellectual curiosity and originality that distinguishes the potentially outstanding candidate from the merely good. It's hard to explain or quantify, but you know it when you see it. And nowadays both these categories tend to have straight As, so it would be impossible to differentiate purely on the basis of A-level grades and UCAS forms.

If your ds wants to get in to Oxford, the best thing he can do for himself is to develop a genuine passion and depth of interest and knowledge in his particular topic. And make sure he can bore for England on the topic of "Why do you want to read maths/English/PPE?" or whatever. Virtually all candidates have prepared a superficially fluent answer to this question, but the large majority are completely floored when you start asking a few more probing questions about their interest in the subject. Only very very few have the kind of interest and enthusiasm that makes you feel excited by the prospect of teaching them for three years.

Swedes - the statistics that are relevant to you when making the decision with your son as to whether or not he changes school in order to improve his chances of getting to Oxbridge are not the absolute percentage of children from each school getting into Oxbridge.

What you need to know are:

• the percentage of children in his current school who have also done GCSEs there who get into Oxbridge

• the percentage of children at each of the two prospective schools who have not done GCSEs there and joined in lower sixth who get into Oxbridge