Do private schools give bursaries/scholarships to parents with decent salaries?

[Alyosha]

I feel certain that the answer to this will be "no" but wanted to check.

We have two DS, 3 and 3 months. We both have good jobs, joint salary is over £100k, very comfortable and we have no complaints about our standard of living. We live in London, where private school fees seem to have gone absolutely nuts. I went to SHHS which was £9k pa by time I left in 2007; so very expensive but would be just about affordable for me & DH for 2 DCs. Occasionally they send me a begging letter asking me to donate for their fund to build a world class music centre...can't say I'm too motivated to donate now their fees are pushing £20k pa.

I can't see any way that we could afford school fees for both boys in 2- 3 year's time even with our good incomes. But looking at the support available it's only if you're earning under £80k. But there's no way I would have thought a family jointly earning £80k could afford £20k in school fees for 2 children (£40k net a year!) with mortgage, council tax, utilities, groceries etc.

So our only option would be a scholarship, but most scholarships seem to be 20% max off fees, which doesn't make them affordable, especially not long term. Is there anywhere that has substantial fee remission for a scholarship in commuting distance of North London, either primary or secondary?

This is of course assuming the DCs would even get scholarships, which I realise is a tall order!

Contrary to what you might think, schools actually are aware of this 'problem' of the squeezed middle not being able to afford fees. (I realise that some on here will bridle at the very concept of a 100k+ earner being the 'middle', but in this context that's exactly what you are.) Many schools do care where their money comes from - they don't just want to give places to the children of oligarchs and yacht owners. They would like to see the stereotypical GP or accountant sending their kids. But there has been such an arms race in terms of facilities in order to attract the very wealthy kids that these schools need to survive, plus spiralling costs of things like teacher pensions etc, that it's hard now for them to keep costs down but still offer the kind of 'advantage' that will keep up with the other schools and keep attracting the punters. I think it is something that at least some schools are looking at, though, and I suspect you might see a bit more fee-tapering and flexible bursaries in future.

I think the assumption that private school is an advantage for university admissions was correct when the OP was at school, but that is no longer so straightforward - and by the time the OP’s kids are applying to university if anything they would be at a disadvantage coming from a private school. FT did a good article on it earlier this year:

How Britain’s private schools lost their grip on Oxbridge

As state-school admissions rise at elite universities, some parents who shelled out for private education regret it

We are applying for 7+ this year and the schools we are looking at are not offering scholarships or bursaries this year at all. They want money and fees paid in full.

@Alyosha

For a gross £12k difference? Seems harsh.

Well perhaps but there needs to be a cut off somewhere I guess. It's quite clear on the forms to make sure only those who need it apply. On your salary unfortunately a bursary wouldn't be considered needed.

I'd be putting them in state primary, especially as you've said they're good in your catchment. You can then reassess at secondary depending on your savings, salary and what the fees have increased to. We've a few family members in London with DC in private and they're on salaries of £200k plus. £100k would be great in other parts of the country but neither of you are really high earners for London.

We're outside of London and have our DC in state primary because as pp said why would we get ourselves on the treadmill unnecessarily. We are considering private secondary as I think that's when the benefits really come out.

Slightly anecdotal but I went to private school from age 4, my husband went state all the way. We attended the same university and he now (pre 30) earns over £100k, I don't imagine I'll ever earn that figure.

www.stpaulsschool.org.uk/admissions/bursaries-assistance-with-fees/

St Paul's Boys' seems to think households on £120k are in need of bursary assistance. Go figure.

[quote Alyosha]@pianolessons1 please do tell which schools are these :D[/quote]
Look on the individual schools websites. But they'll want to see no second property, no expensive car, no big holidays.....

@pianolessons1 no problem there! Ha.

@impasto yes when I said it wasn't great for their future I meant they're much more exposed to calls to e.g. lose charity status now journalists can't afford to send their kids there.

@CauldronBubble read that article! But I wouldn't say they've really lost their grip as they still send huge numbers. And there's still an advantage after uni too. But you're right on the trend, crossed fingers that continues.

@controve yes this is the best way to do it I think. Just want the insurance in case the state sector really plummets in 8 years' or so time

@Chgl92 interesting! Funny mixture here of "surely to can afford it" and "of course you can't afford it". Perhaps a London vs. out of London split

Ok wow st Paul's would give us 45% fee remission! What a pity we live in North London

Actually they deduct 15k from your salary so it would be 75%. Surely that can't be right? Seems exceptionally generous.

[quote Alyosha]@CurlyhairedAssassin Not a goady troll. Lol. You can check my post history!

And no, we can't adjust our net income to afford £40k net on school fees (will be higher of course when the kids actually start) given our relatively high mortgage, groceries & other expenses. DH is 33 and I am 32 we also have ~£300 off our salaries for student loan repayments every month which may not have factored in to your calculations. And I've had 2 maternity leaves which has also eaten into our savings.[/quote]
Poor you.
Sell the house and but a small cheaper flat.
Shop at discount stores for food - or even better still use food banks.
Forgo holidaying in the Maldives for a few years.
Sell the car and use public transport.

Lots of ways to cut spending…

@Soontobe60 use food banks? Are you a goady troll?? Talk about abusing generosity.

We don't have expensive foreign holidays.
Planning to sell the car we have when the kids are older mainly to get rid of insurance costs, car's not worth much.

Your other ideas are definitely on the table when the time comes.

Although with 75% fee remission at st Paul's we could probably keep the house!

We’re in the same boat as you OP. Salaries really good on the face of it, but private school for 2 would mean a lot has to change. We went to a few school open days in our area, and decided we actually rather like the state school - its ofsted outstanding, the kids were relaxed and funny and really polite, the teachers were motivated. The private schools had an edge in terms of facilities and events, but we figured it would be way more affordable if we just did that stuff as a family (which we’d enjoy anyway). The private schools here are good, but they’re not top 10 in the country and I think that’s what I’d need if I were to make huge sacrifices to send my kids there.

Bottom line is, what leads to happy, confident and well adjusted kids? A secure and loving family - parents who aren’t stressed out by money problems - parents who spend time with them. My kids lives would be improved by me working part time and being super chilled and happy, than if I worked 70 hours a week and was stressed all the time.

Why on earth would you expect a scholarship?

The point is to help those whose parents are on low incomes...

Trouble is OP, schools like St Paul's are exceptionally hard to get into. You need an extremely bright child, and even then they'll be up against a huge number of other extremely bright children, so they have to perform very well in the exam and also shine at interview. You might end up with that (twice over) - but it's far too early to know. And even the very best candidates will never be anything like a dead cert. If you're in London and set on private secondaries, you will need to have several Plan B and Cs too.

I would question the assumption that private education will give your children an edge in the job market. The research shows privately educated children go on to earn more with worse degrees but that’s likely to have a lot to do with parental support allowing them to hold out for better paid work, to pay for further training, to take internships etc. and the connections their family provide them with. Presumably you would still offer all that, regardless of which school your kids went to. The disparity in pay is also likely to reflect what they’ve been taught to value. I think the OP herself explains some of the finding: If you’ve been brought up believing that your success was to some degree down to expensive education you’re more likely to feel compelled to look for highly paid work to replicate that for your own future family. Someone who feels they did fine without may feel free to choose work which won’t assure such a high level of income.

Trouble is OP, schools like St Paul's are exceptionally hard to get into. You need an extremely bright child, and even then they'll be up against a huge number of other extremely bright children.

I was amused to see one of the winners of Child Genius when I dropped my son for his entrance exams. No pressure...

For us, private school has been worthwhile because both children love sport and the facilities, coaching and number of fixtures have (for us), justified the outlay. The local state schools are excellent in my area so, if my children weren't into drama, music or sport and making use of the opportunities school provide in these areas, I'm not sure I'd spend the money. And also agree that Oxbridge numbers are on a clear downward trend for most private schools.

If you have daughters and you are North London, are you close enough to Henrietta Barnett? If you can get in there, forget private schools. Otherwise, Fortismere School has excellent results, although . If you're more Watford way, the Watford Grammars are academically rigorous and the girls school at least extends the local authority area for academic or music scholarship (boys may be the same).

If you're dead set on private, being in North London doesn't necessarily rule out SPS. It might be awkward in Barnes, but depends on transport arrangements. Scholarships are nominal (£50, basically) but bursary scheme is a lot - probably because there are a handful of bonafide billionaires sending their kids there.
The boys school benefits from the very high academic reputation of the girls school, but isn't actually nearly as selective, so worth a shot? Although from my experience, it is druggy in certain pockets and has some of the most pessimistic, burnt out teachers I've ever met, especially this side of the Pandemic.

You can’t afford it. If private school was important to me, we’d have stopped at one child to be able to afford it. Save up while they’re at a state primary and use the savings to make private secondary a bit more achievable?

It sounds like private school for two children is out of your reach unless you increase you income significantly or move.

We scoped out the state and private schools when I was pregnant with our first child , they are not good and for that reason we stopped at one child and started saving straight away.

I think you're going to need to move out of London if this is what you want. PPs are right when they say it's an arms race these days. I went to a London private school from a state primary - most of the kids there were the same (1980s). My friends who tried the same with their kids a few years ago got a nasty shock - not a single one got in to the more prestigious schools. They just hadn't been prepped in the way that kids who had been at pre-preps since the age of four.

I can't see any difference in intelligence between the children I know who went down that hothouse route and those who went to state primaries. But the ones who went private from the get go are the ones at the fanciest schools.

Fwiw I honestly think it's a waste of money. All the kids I know end up at the same universities. I think unless you are in a couple of particular sectors there really is no advantage to a private school education.

Finally. Private schools do actually have charitable status. I think it's indefensible for them to be using this to subsidise the wealthy (which op is in the grand scheme of things)

The last paragraph of my post should more accurately say that it's indefensible for private schools to retain charitable status if they are subsidising people as wealthy as op.

@5329871e I think we are very much in the same boat. We have younger children and as things currently are, would be happy to send them to state school. Definitely planning on that for primary.

Secondary schools in our area are good now but a lot can change in 8 years. When I was starting secondary school in London, back in 2000, my local state schools were getting 30% A*-C. And my mum was very worried that I would bullied, as I had been in primary school.

I ended up being bullied anyway in SHHS but it probably wasn't as bad? Who knows.

@ElectraBlue Scholarships are for clever clogs, not for low income families. Low income families tend to get bursaries.

@impasto Oh trust me, I know! When I did my 11+ it was difficult to get in and its only got worse and worse since then. Had my mother been an MN poster (I think she was actually an MN poster but refuses to tell me what her username was, goodness knows what she said about 11 year old me!) she would have been told to forget it. Me getting into SHHS involved tutoring from Year 4 (I went to a state primary), applying to all the North London girls' schools (City, Channing, SHHS, Francis Holland Baker Street, Henrietta Barnett) apart from NLCS because my mum was well aware I had no chance of getting in there. Only got into SHHS with wait list place everywhere else. My mum was dead set on City and rang them up every day to no avail.

Anyway, long story short - I know it's extremely hard to get into all the private schools in London and I'm certainly not banking on it.

@Chgl92 is it not an incredibly long commute though? And interesting re: it not being as prestigious as SPGS. I suppose Westminster is the SPGS boys' equivalent. I'm used to dubious teachers. One of my SHHS teachers was having an affair with a 15 year old pupil then ran off to Columbia.

@almahart It's not an intelligence thing, it's a life chances thing. I hope previous posters are right and that the unfair advantage private school pupils get is abating.

I think it's more complicated than that re charitable status. A school I know well is relatively generous in its bursaries for middle as well as lower earners - but it also does a huge amount of other charitable work, much more than most other schools I've come across. Some schools have much lower income thresholds for their bursaries, but do pretty much nothing else to justify their charitable status. If you really want to look in detail at charitable status, you have to assess a lot of different factors, not just bursaries.

£50k each for privately educated people in London isn't good salaries, surely?

That's the problem. £100k isn't what it was.

Don't get me wrong, I have a perfectly nice life on much less, but a joint income of £100k in the most expensive place in the country to live doesn't put you in private school territory.