My son is behaving like an absolute sh*t at school - any advice welcomed

[Paula1]

My ds 4yrs 4mths started school full time in September. He absolutely loves going, really enjoys doing his work, but his teacher says that he is the most disruptive, disobedient, defiant child that she has ever taught. Apparently, he is always leaning/pushing/poking the other children, won't stop when he's told not to do things, always fiddling with things like pencils/books etc when he's supposed to be listening to the teacher (and all the others are behaving), won't stand up straight when it's time for prayers at home time, makes a noise when he's supposed to be quiet... everything just about that makes the teachers day a complete misery. She says he's not the naughtiest in the things that he does, but that he just looks at her, smiles, says sorry and then carries on doing whatever he is supposed to be not doing!! He had gone to Nursery full time before school, and had not behaved like this there, and he doesn't at home either - he knows that No means that. I don't know what to do. It is so horrible being told that your child is like this, it makes you feel that you've failed completely. Anyone have experience of anything like this?

WWW, my ds (same age as yours) comes home from school looking tired, but still seems to need to charge around for a bit to chill out. Now he's started going to the after school club this is perfect - he gets to run around with a couple of his mates for a bit before I pick him up, and the play leader is an early 20s bloke with far more energy than me for dealing with that sort of thing at that time of day .

Robin, I think we have to thank suedonim for that quote about boys being like dogs.
I can imagine, as you say, that the need for daily exercise is not confined to boys. Even I get fidgity if I haven't had a walk around outside during the day.

The testosterone surge at age 4/5 is discussed at length in Raising Boys by Steve Biddulph. He also describes a pysical reason for boys inattentiveness - I can't remember if it applies to girls as well. When boys have testosterone-fuelled growth spurts their soft ear tissue may not grow as fast and this affects their hearing level. So if your son appears to go a bit deaf for a few weeks, then is perfectly OK again, this could be the reason - they are not necessarily feigning deafness. My oldest son has this condition and there is little we can do about it - just keep getting him regularly checked by the audiologist and make sure his teachers know his hearing comes and goes. He will we are told grow out of it.

Going back to physical exercise - since my son was 7 he's tried various extra-curicular activities. The ones that aren't mega physical - drama, sunday school, beavers are the ones we've had the most problem with. He still goes to sunday school and cubs, and is good most of the time, but has to be strongly reminded before the start of each class.

We are having more success with the two sporting activities he has just started: judo, and cricket. So far I have had no worries about his behavior and he is really enthusiastic and eager to learn these skills.

Just a behaviour book query: did anyone else find it difficult to know what standard of behaviour merits a 'good' in the book? I want my standards to reflect the school's standard. eg: if I have to tell my son to put his shoes on more than once, is this unacceptable? At home I think we'd run to two times, then a black mark, unless we were in a rush. At school,if my son ingored the teacher's order once might be enough to be put down as bad behaviour. I have no way of knowing what the teacher lets the class son get away with. I think really need to go in and watch.

I teach 16 - 18 year olds, and even at that age I encourage them to get up, walk around the classroom and discuss things with their peers. My classes are 80% boys and quite frankly, if they can't be on the move at all times, very little work gets done. I think it's appaling that we expect children to be regimented and passive.

I suspect, Paula1, that your son's teacher has a problem with, what we call in teacher lingo "classroom control". The fact is that all students are different, boys do tend to be more physical than girls, some have long attention spans, some short. The trick is to learn how to deal with the mix effectivly. I had a student a couple of years ago who was ADAH. He was 18, and when provoked could be extremly violent and disruptive. In the end I came to a private agreement with him. He stayed in class as long as he could cope. When he felt himself losing it, he discretly could leave class. What surprised me was that once he knew he had that outlet, he rarely used it. The result was a calmer class, the boy passed, and even did better than any of us - teachers, parents and the student himself - expected.

Not that I wish to denigrate teachers, I'm one myself and am heartily sick of being blamed for all of society's ills, but, it is a team effort. I've lost count of the times that a swift phone call to parents has nipped potentially disasterous behaviour pattens in the bud. I would question your son's teacher describing a child who is happy at school as being defiant and disruptive. These are not the behaviours of a child who loves school. It sounds to me as if the problem is with the teacher's interpretation of his behaviour, not the behaviour itsef.

Incidentally, I participated in a research project when I was a student. We sat in classes and timed how much attention teachers gave girls and boys. Even avowed feminist teachers who strongly believed in equality for all their students still gave at least 65% of their attention to boys, without realising it. The original work was done by Dale Spender, and Australian sociologist, but I can't remember the name of the book. Something like "The Schooling Scandal". Worth reading for mothers of girls, even though it's slightly out of date now.

As I remember it, teacher attention was defined as any type of interaction between teacher and student be it good, bad or indifferent.

Maryz I'd be amazed if it wasn't negative or 'positive given in order to avoid negative behaviour'.
I taught in a girls comprehensive before my current post and was amazed by how quiet ad undemanding the girls seemed in a mixed setting - whereas they certainly hadn't been in a single sex school! I was VERY aware to start with - and have become progressively less so unless I stop and think about it - how much more attention I give boys - eg asking them a question if there are many hands up as I know that giving positive attention avoids children looking for negative attention from the teacher - and thus I pick students to answer who are more likley to look for attention in negative ways if they don't get it in positive ways - and in my school that is boys far more often than girls....
It's a real shame that more pratical work isnt' done on classroom mangement on the PGCE course - we regularly have teaching practice students and when I was head of department and resposible for them I put together a whole pack on it and lots of practical tips etc and they were always overjoyed and said it really helped - but it shouldn't JUST be left to individual schools/departments to do this!

slug and bayleaf , this discussion about boys getting more of the teacher's attention is really interesting.

The more I read about it, the more it seems to me that boys and girls learn differently, yet schools expect the same results from them at the same time. Is it just coincidence that in all three primary schools my son has attended, more girls than boys made up the top groups in numeracy and literacy?

philly outlined an argument I have heard before about how the education methods now used in schools favour girls over boys. I can't comment from experience of course, because I am not a teacher, but I find it interesting to listen to what others have to say.

Off topic a bit but I thought of you Tigermoth yesterday. This year I'm a year 7 tutor and we have a quicky tick box report now to see how they're settling in. The 3 possible categories are good/very good/ causing concern. One of the criteria is 'standard of work' and I had never ticked this as a teacher in the past when fillig them in for weak students just very very occasionally if I knew from transfer information that a child was bright but his/her performance was poor. However now in my first year as a year 7 tutor at this school I realise with horror that many staff interpret this box as needing to be ticked as causing concern if a student is performing below the average for the class - thus a wonderful statemented girl in my form who tries her socks off has loads of subjects with ticks in this box.
Feeling that this was outrageous ( definitely with my mum/protective form tutor head on not as french teacher!)I went storming down to the lower school coordinator - who completely accepted my point but with a wry shrug said ''ah yes, be we both know that you use the transfer information - and not everyone does''!!!!! She did then promise to include a note in my pupil's report explaining that she was working very hard etc etc and to mention it to senior management - but it really made me think. Those quicky reporst have been like that since I've been there - nearly 10 years - how many weak students who are already finding the transfer difficult have had to face a report saying that they are 'causing concern' when in actual fact it probably should have been congratulating them on how well they'd done ( given their ability).
I shall have to keep my parent head on more often at work and start acting as a double agent!

Good on you, Bayleaf!

Oh yes, bayleaf, please be a double agent!

I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets worried over this class average thing.

Going on your story, would all the children who perform below average automatically get ticks in the cause for concern box? Surely that's not right, especially when you get a child who really tries hard like the girl you mention. Well done for bringing this up with the management.

And there's my son, in the average or high average sets for all subjects, certainly not struggling with any of the work, yet the school is concerned because he's got the ability to do much better. I wonder if we'd still have to fill in a behaviour book if his abilty was average too? We are told his behaviour is holding him back - fair enough and I'd agree - yet if he was performing to his abilty, would they make such a fuss?

Interesting what you say about year 7 teachers seeing the transfer reports from primary schools. I asked my son's teacher if secondary schools ever had access to pupil's reports before a decision was taken on giving them a place. A big worry in my case since my son's reports aren't that rosy. I was told that places are offered without any prior knowledge of reports or behavior books etc. Only if a child is statemented SEN is the secondary school made aware beforehand.

In your capacity as double agent, bayleaf, can I ask you if this is absolutely true?

I don't know for sure Tigermoth - but I'll find out after half term - I suspect it is true - yes we get full access to reports once they've arrived - but by then they've got a place - and to be honest only tutors/pastoral heads read all the reports that are transfered - the info I meant was just SATs and CATs ( Cognitive abilty tests, bit like an iq test but not) which lots of secondary school do on arrival - and some use the information very badly ( stick them in sets just on that information) and others use rather more sensibly as one indication of value added when students leave/to spot underachievement.

I was interested that you give the impression of wishing your son's school didn't make such as fuss about his underachieving ( ie would they let him behave as he is and ignore it if he wasn't bright) and I have to say that my first reaction is that you should be grateful if they spot that he is bright and are bothered that he is underachieving - it's all too easy to miss bright children when they don't behave ''well'' and produce messy work etc etc. It's one of my personal ''bees in bonnet'' ( and this is as a French teacher not a parent!) that so many subjects at school set students badly and don't move them often enough. They don't use SATs and CATs as extra informations alongside teachr recommendation for sets - thus if a teacher is the sort who can't see past bad behaviour/poor presentaion then a child ( almost alwasy a boy) will end up in a low group - and often they then perform down to the level of the group and SIGNIFICANTLY underachieve at 16. I teach French and we manage a 75% a-c ( in an inner city school) with boys only a few percentage points below the girls - and far closer to the girls that in any other subject at school - despite the fact that languages are traditionally an area where girls significantly outperform boys - and a good part of this is our attitude to setting / spotting underachievment and doing somehing about it - writing home/detentions etc. It's hassle - but I wound't want my child to come out with a load of d's because the techers couldn't be bothered to push her.
One of the main other reasons for boys success is that 'active' lessons we give - LOADS of speaking and games where oral work is valued and boys alomst inevitably enjoy and out perform girls which makes up for the fact that they can rarely be botherd to do accurate written work!
Better go - Dd has woken.

Thanks for that info, bayleaf. I admit I feel a bit torn over this behavour/performance thingy.

Of course I want my son to fulfil his potential - very worrying what you said about underachieving children put in low sets significantly underperforming throughout their school years. And yes, of course I am glad my son's teachers have spotted his apparent ability. It's just that he's only 8 years old and I feel they come down so hard on him sometimes and possibly he gets singled out.

For instance: my son was involved in a classroom incident with another boy who was showing off a boxing move. My son was holding up his hands to catch the punch. Another child told them to stop and moved towards them (the teacher had her back to this). The third child got hit by the other boy, accidently. Both this boy and my son got a good telling off, quite rightly, and a letter home. However for us it didn't stop there - we were called for a meeting and now have this behaviour book. The other boy does not have a behavior book - according to my son, anyway, and coincidence or not he in 'lower' sets (hate using high and low).

Also, my son was recently challenged by his teacher to read a Harry Potter book - his first long book. He did so in a week and a bit, and is now on the second. I was really proud of him but his teacher did not give him even one bonus point for this Her attitude to this was well his reading is OK so of course he should be able to read Harry Potter.

I have asked her if my son's behaviour and work output improves whether he will be moved up a set. She seemed very doubtful, yet according to his verbal reasoning tests his rough ability is on the 75th to 90th percentile, so presumbly if a class is divided into three ability sets, he would be in the highest,if he is pulling his hweight. I am now rather confused!

We will be seeing her again soon, so will talk more to her - I don't expect you to give me detailed answers to such specifics, bayleaf - but wanted to illustrate why I'm a little ambivalent at the moment.

Tigermoth I can quite understand why you feel as you do now you have given a fuller picture - and I can't say I think particularly positive thoughts about ds's teacher now!
Did you ask why your son was punished more than the child who was far more to blame - No I don't suppose staff would enter into discussing other students' punishments ( well I wouldn't ) but as a parent I would be cross at the apparent injustice of it. What rationale have they given for the behaviour book? I had understood that it was due to their concern at ds being bright but underachieving. If ds was a child doing French in my department we'd have him where his ability said he should be and work on it if his attainment was below the rest of the class - carrots/sticks/whatever I could lay my hands on - I'm appalled to hear that your son's teacher doesn't give positive reinforcement. I spend hours praising students who have behaved less awfully than usual ( the sort of behaviour that would get a normally 'good' student in trouble(!) but if it is better then the norm for them then they get lavish praise. Sometimes it sticks in the throat - but I've 15 year's experience and it works - so I do it. To NOT praise when it is actually deserved is just outrageous. Do you think for whatever reason the teacher dislikes ds in particular ( you refer to him being singled out)- or is she generally not a great teacher?

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bayleaf, batters and robinw - thanks for your concern. I think lots of these details will get ironed out at the regular meetings we will be having with my son's teacher, but you can see why I am confused. Just to pick up on a few things:

bayleaf, you're right, the behaviour book is principally because my son is not performing at the level of his ablity. The classroom incident was not the main reason behind it, I think, even though the book was only suggested after this happened.

I still don't know why my son has a behaviour book and this other boy doesn't. From what my son says, this boy is also a handful and gets about as many bad marks as my son (as do one or two other boys). At times they get into trouble when my son doesn't. Yet my son is the only child with a behaviour book. As you say, teachers won't discuss other children (quite rightly) so I am in the dark. I have to assume the behaviour book is there to improve my son's performance. Perhaps the other boys all perform at their ability, though most of them are in lower sets than my son.

The Harry Potter thing still rankles me. There are five bands of reading and my son is on the second from top band. He has read lots of the books on his band and this term his reading has speeded up no end - he reads lots at home. He does seem to take in the stories too. He asked the teacher if he could choose a book from the top band and he was told no, not till his WRITTEN work improves. I went to see the teacher about this and she stood by her decision but challenged him to read Harry Potter. This is a book that is on the top band. Now he's read it, she has suggested he reads another, but still won't let him 'officially' choose books from the top band. Mad!

Also, spellings - my son is in the middle spelling group. Few children in class get their 10 spellings right each week. My son is one of them. Yet he only practices his spellings for about 10 minutes - he knows how to spell most of the words without trying. I suggested that he needed challenging with harder spellings, but his teacher did not seem to think he was in the wrong group - just said she'd bear it in mind.

I suppose, in my son's class, there may be lots of children with higher verbal reasoning scores: Perhaps most of them are above the 50th percentile so my son's score is nothing special. I just wish someone would tell me if this is the case. It's no good being told your son is above average in ability if you can't set this in context!

So I do think I need to spend time at school and do as Robin suggests - get talking to the dinner ladies.

Hopefully, things will become clearer in the fullness of time.

Interesting thread. I didn't know they had such percentiles. Things are certainly going to be interesting when ds1 starts school......

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Tigermoth - I thnk even less of the teacher now! No teacher lkes to be 'told their business' by a parent but whatever the levels of the other students in the calss your son should clearly be in a higher spelling and reading group - to not allow him to choose from the top list when he is clearly coping with the level is just mindblowingly petty. One thing occured to me - you would be pretty unrepresentative of the parents of 'difficult children' we have and the teacher may well think that whilst there is a point to using a behaviour book with a home that is very supportive and wanting to work alongside the school etc etc not all parents are to the same extent and such a strategy will only work when the parents are 100% on board so to speak.

My other thought re possibly the teacher singling ds out is that I am aware that I make a special effort to be extra patient/flexible with students who I know have hellish home situations ( some of the storis you hear make you want to weep) and when I stop and think back to students who have made my life difficult with no apparent 'excuse' in terms of background or ability I felt a lot more negative towards them than I did to students who behaved in similar ways but with more ( as I saw it) 'excuse' for their behaviour.

I do get the impression that the teachers are baffled by my son being difficult - and this bafflement may well lead to negative feelings. As a parent, of course I have no idea how this particular school treats other children and their parents - perhaps this is a common attitude!

I'm not saying his home situation is perfect and I'm perfect, but it did cross my mind that the behaviour book was sugggested because the teachers know we would not be hostile to this, and also would regularly fill it in (we have to do an am/pm and evening entry).

I did also wonder if the reason my son isn't moved up to a higher reading or spelling set is because of his behaviour. Perhaps only the good children are allowed in the top sets? The lists were up in the classroom a few weeks ago and I peeked at the names. The top sets are made up of girls and usually just one boy who is very well behaved. The two other 'bad' boys are in the very lowest sets. Apart from this one good boy (coincidently my son's best friend) my son is in some of the highest sets for boys. I am wondering if the teachers feel that by moving him up, it gives the message that his behaviour does not really matter. Perhaps the top set has to set an example? No wonder so few boys make the grade!

Ahh....the above implies that I think my son is a brainbox and that I'm a highly competitive mum! I have seem him in class once or twice and so I know that some other children answer questions quicker and my son doesn't know all the answers. His written work has improved a lot, but compared to others he still has a way to go. Perhaps he really is about average in the class, but then, why these reading and spelling disagreements? I will keep on pushing for an answer to this and intend to ask the teacher if top set pupils have to be well behaved in order to be in that set.

Thanks for all this input bayleaf. It is really good to read your answers.

Sadly it's quite possible that UNOFFICIALLY ( I'd be amazed if anyone would admit it) there is sometimes for SOME teachers the thought that only motivated children go into top sets - if you put silly and unmotivated children in there then it might stop the rest learning or some such idea. Patently obvious that this is ridiculous - motivated children will learn pretty much whatever is going on - and disruptive behaviour impedes learning far more in lower sets than in top sets - but however logical what I have just written seems to me you will still find people to whom it is anathema putting badly behaved/unmotivated pupils in tops sets. When I was a head of department I had several battles on this one with members of staff who couldn't see past students hand writing and presentation.
It is quite possible that your son is only average for the group in some areas - but the evidence you have produced on spellings is quite clear. If he is consistently getting 100% on very little revision then he is not being challenged and shuld be in a higher group. You could use this one area as a test case - push it with the teacher and if need be push it with management - yes it will get you a reputation as a stroppy parent - but frnakly who cares!

Tigermoth, just wanted to say that some of the teachers reasoning does sound, well, unreasonable.Especially the bit about not being allowed to read from the top band even though he has proved he can do it - where's his motivation for keeping going with the good reading if he doesn't get any praise or reward for it? (especially since you've said that he can be a bit unmotivated sometimes) The spelling thing sounds odd too: if he always gets 10/10 then he is trying and doing well, so where's her issue with letting him try harder spellings? I'm not a teacher and don't understand how all this set business works so no good advice but I can see why you are frustrated. I would be about the other boy not getting a behaviour book too. Mmm, good luck with talking to her.

Good idea to use the spelling as a test case and also to say my son is puzzled that that the other boy hasn't got a behaviour book too. Thanks batters and bayleaf (and also www for your message). I will do ask these questions at our next meeting.

I agree bayleaf, I'm sure some teachers wouldn't put an unmotivated child in a top set. I can see the reasoning behind this, too. Still can't decide whether I agree with it. It seems quite girl biased and must over the years send out a bad message to some of the boys. From what I have seem of the primary education system, I do wish there were fundamental changes to it that made boys feel more valued. However, I suppose in the real world, attitude, motivation and hard work are just as important as performance, so why should schools not follow suit?

In his previous school, my son was mostly in the
top sets despite his behaviour, but of course the class as a whole might have been less advanced.

My son's present school prides itself in its high standards of achievement and behaviour - it scored joint top in the borough SATS results last year. The children in his class have had four years of this schools teaching approach, my son has only had one year.

I'll let you know how our next meeting goes - thanks for the advice.

Tigermoth - I couldn't believe what you posted about the witch teacher refusing to let your son read books from a higher band until his written work improves!!!!! My jaw wasn't just on the floor, it had hit the basement!!!! Has she no idea that written ability and reading ability rarely correlate? She sure knows how to de-motivate the children in her class doesn't she?
bayleaf - I do agree with you, that there are some teachers who will only put well behaved children in the top groups - seen it done. I, however, have a top group this year who are very bright, but complete pains in the neck behaviour-wise! you can't pick them, you have to go with what you've got and go the extra 100 miles if needs be!