My son is behaving like an absolute sh*t at school - any advice welcomed

[Paula1]

My ds 4yrs 4mths started school full time in September. He absolutely loves going, really enjoys doing his work, but his teacher says that he is the most disruptive, disobedient, defiant child that she has ever taught. Apparently, he is always leaning/pushing/poking the other children, won't stop when he's told not to do things, always fiddling with things like pencils/books etc when he's supposed to be listening to the teacher (and all the others are behaving), won't stand up straight when it's time for prayers at home time, makes a noise when he's supposed to be quiet... everything just about that makes the teachers day a complete misery. She says he's not the naughtiest in the things that he does, but that he just looks at her, smiles, says sorry and then carries on doing whatever he is supposed to be not doing!! He had gone to Nursery full time before school, and had not behaved like this there, and he doesn't at home either - he knows that No means that. I don't know what to do. It is so horrible being told that your child is like this, it makes you feel that you've failed completely. Anyone have experience of anything like this?

let me add that when i went into school it was becuase the teacher was a rotten teacher - lovley woman but couldnt cope with children in general. this was the only time i had to do this. i made sure i had regular meetings with the head teacher and his teacher and i told them what i thought too! - thats the reason for saying that all teahers arnt gods - most are adequate to good at what they do - however i have only ever met one outstanding one - and i am heavily involved in their school education - keep stickin mi oar in this means. ooooh this is could be another thread!

Could he be bored? If he has just started it is difficult to pinpoint exact ability levels and resources are usually all geared to class and age group but it might be worth a try having a look at some teacher web sites and finding work that is age appropriate and ten seeing if there is anything a little harder, just to give yourself an idea of ability. Discuss with the teacher. If it was me I'd be thinking about boredom and trying to stretch him.

Teacher was not being unprofessional, in my opinion. What should she have said. "He is a little naughty" Would that give a clear indication of the problem? Would any parent try to improve that behaviour if it was only "a little naughty" No because as many have already said all children are like that at some point or another.

Being in a class of 23-33 children does not lead children to behave the way they would during play or at home. Teachers and parents alike have to recognise that fact.

I've been through this too. Constantly told by the teacher how uncontrollable/violent/wilful
/unteachable my 4 year old was. She tried to suggest to me he was autistic "because he seems to have an unusually good memory" and needed professional help. I frantically read up on autism and grilled my dad who is a retired primary school teacher. He clearly is not. I used to dread taking him to school waiting for her "this hurts me more than it hurts you" expression.

I lost faith in the school and moved DS. He is fine at his new school.

He has always been good at home. I just think that he does not respond to the "now dear that will make teacher very sad" school of chastisement. My approach has always been a lot more straightforward - "you push someone in the park you go straight home" - and do it!

That said, the most successful thing we did was arrange to pick up a little classmate from school every day and give them a few chocolate buttons in the car on the way home if they have been good. DS only had to watch classmate eat his buttons in front of him twice while he had none and the behaviour improved miraculously. (he was thrilled when one day classmate had been fighting and HE could eat his buttons while classmate had none).

Could he be bored? If he has just started it is difficult to pinpoint exact ability levels and resources are usually all geared to class and age group but it might be worth a try having a look at some teacher web sites and finding work that is age appropriate and ten seeing if there is anything a little harder, just to give yourself an idea of ability. Discuss with the teacher. If it was me I'd be thinking about boredom and trying to stretch him.

Teacher was not being unprofessional, in my opinion. What should she have said. "He is a little naughty" Would that give a clear indication of the problem? Would any parent try to improve that behaviour if it was only "a little naughty" No because as many have already said all children are like that at some point or another.

Being in a class of 23-33 children does not lead children to behave the way they would during play or at home. Teachers and parents alike have to recognise that fact.

Don't know why that posted again, please ignore this one and the first if you don't agree!!!

This poem was part of my son's literacy homework. I wonder if the teacher set it on purpose.

Finishing Off
by Allan Ahlberg

The teacher said
Come here, Malcolm!
Look at the state of your book.
Stories and picturies unfinished
Wherever I look.

This model you started at Easter,
These plaster casts of your feet,
That graph of the local traffic -
All of them incomplete.

You've a half-baked pot in the kiln room
And a half-eaten cake in your drawer,
You don't even finish the jokes you tell -
I really can't take any more.

And Malcolm said
.....very little.
He blinked and shuffled his feet.
The sentence he finally started
Remained incomplete.

He gazed for a time at the floorboards;
He stared for a while into space;
With an unlined, unwhiskered expression
On his unfinished face.

the teacher in point smacked my son in school - i didnt take it further becuase she already knew that if i reported it she would lose a career she had taught for many many years and was probably close to retirement. it was only a tap,but my son was humiliated. still she shouldnt have done it - so going into school was as much to say " im watching you missus" as it was to watch my son

The teacher may not be right - other people have made the point that the standards they are expecting are too high for such a young child. I teach in a primary school and often get children who transfer from other schools with behaviour diaries, IEP's for behaviour etc. When you read some of the stuff in the behaviour diaries it's a joke! I'd say that about 50% of the children shouldn't even have been on them! Poor behaviour management and a reliance on stressing the bad rather than the good sems to be the problem.
I will say that trying to work with the teacher may be a good idea, but if you feel she's just not getting the situation sorted or could be causing it herself, then you need to go to the Head. Is there any way you could observe your son without him knowing? Why is he supposed to be listening and also having access to books/pencils at the samw time? Recipe for disaster for a Reception child! He's not even 4 and a half yet! What on earth IS she expecting? He should be getting lots of learning through play as set out in the Early Learning Goals. Ask to see them - is the school following them?

Like the poem, T'moth.

I'm finding this conversation v interesting.

Mel, you give me hope that there are great primary teachers out there!

Though you, custardo, have plunged me into the depths of despair because to me your story confirms my suspicion that there are still utter loons out there masquerading as teachers. I'm dead impressed that you resisted the urge to throw every spanner at your fingertips into her works after she did that to your boy...

Bayleaf- I?m really fascinated by your ?parent?s head? ?teacher?s head? ideas because my experience is that parents can be treated really badly by schools. (Please don?t take offence at this any one, especially you teachers- I really do know how hard it is thinking about the needs of zillions of kids at a time and how issues of classroom management, whole class learning, deprivation and a fragmented, under funded system can make it extremely difficult to deal with individual children?s needs, particularly if they are disrupting other children?s learning and the resources to support them properly are just not there, no matter how sympathetic you are to the problem.) There really does seem to be a widespread culture of blaming parents solely and exclusively for children?s bad behaviour and refusing to consider how schools can work with families to improve things. When parents try and do their utmost to work proactively with the school- and many if not most will try to do so, as far as they are able, if their kid is having problems- they can be rebuffed because they are automatically seen as a part of the problem. I have been quite shocked by the way in which I have heard some teachers talking to parents- patronising, rude, dismissive are words that come to mind. There also seems to be a policy in some schools that teachers will not make themselves available to talk to parents- either in person or by phone- at lunchtimes or the end of the day. I am so glad I no longer have dealings with one (terrible) school I worked at where I would regularly answer the phone to (sometimes distressed) parents in the staff room, try to get the teacher requested to go to the phone but have the teacher refuse utterly even when informed of the parent?s obvious distress. Several parents were convinced that I was not passing on their messages. (Serve me right for hovering there waiting for my partner to call, I guess!)

I do think teachers who are parents of school age children tend to be a bit more sympathetic, perhaps. And though a lot of this is surely down to a shit system, I think that a bit of understanding and empathy from teachers is incredibly helpful when there are serious or not so serious problems with a child. Unsurprisingly, parents take a lot of comfort from being treated as decent human beings who are concerned about the welfare of their child and a change of attitude and emphasis really can move situations forward sometimes, I think.

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Paula1 & Tigermouth - my heart goes out to you both, as I know just how you feel.

However, I do feel rather depressed by this thread. It seems to me (from reading here and a few other threads) that it's only the boys that get labelled as disruptive, disobedient, etc. My ds aged 6½ has suddenly started to get into trouble again at school. He'd been in trouble towards the end of his Reception year, but seemed to settle down in Year 1. Now, however, six weeks into Year 2 - I'm suddenly getting messages from his teacher that ds is causing problems in class. He's unable to sit still, do as he's told, interrupts the teacher, talks to his friends in class when they should be working, has a "don't care attitude", is being rude to teachers and other adult helpers. It appears that everything was okay at the start of term but things have just gone down hill. I've had long chats with both his teacher and the SENCO (both of whom seem to be very supportive). They have asked me to keep a record of what ds eats as they have a feeling his behaviour is linked to what he eats. I have to say that I'm not convinced as his diet has been pretty much the same since he started at school. However, I've had him checked and he seems to be sensitive to food colourings and some additives, sugar, chocolate, and coke. I'm happy to avoid these things - can't do any harm, but I'm not sure they'll change his behaviour.

I suppose what I'm saying is that I'm totally at a loss as to what to do now. We've following the reward system, emphasising the good behaviour and ignoring the bad. I'm beginning to wonder if my ds is getting the blame for "everything" now. I know that he's no angel, but then no child is, and I feel that I'm doing my level best to help him and the school work this out. But I need some help! Any advice would be appreciated.

Sorry this is so long, but I just had to get it down.

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as the mother of 3 boys I am appalled to hear such comments.There has been reasearch which shows that boys growth has a spurt at around 4 to 5 years and one reason why boys are often unable to sit still at this stage is that there bodies are crying out to excercise their rapidly developing bones and muscles.This partly explains why girls are more able to sit still.Apparently schools which allow more frequent short playtimes get better results from primary boys.Boys are more naturally boisterous and the correct outlets for their needs should be found.They should not be forced to behave in the way that girls do just because as a society we are going through a period of valuing natutrally female traits more.In my experience boys often lose out because primarily female priamry teachers favour girls not necessarily consciously and boys often lack good male role models in the school enviroment to promote the correct behaviour codes.
Going back to the original message it sounds to me as if your little boy is just finding the classroom enviroment difficult to cope with,he is only 4 what may seem obvious to you and me may not seem obvious to a person who is now experiencing something for the first time.Perhaps he feels that this is the only way he can get attention,perhaps if the teacher made a point of spending a little more time with him on a one to one basis or perhaps got a classrooom assistant to sit near him when she is talking to the whole class this would help him to feel included(I found out that my little boy at the beginning of nursery was unaware that when the teacher spoke to the whole class she was addressing him,he had never been in this enviroment before).It may also be a cry for a little bit of help in coping with his new life.Normally bright and biddable children who have not had problems in other enviroments are rarely "naughty" for no reason.

Wow, thanks everyone for all your excellent advice. We started a chart on Saturday like WWW suggested, and his teacher said that he was much better yesterday. We had kept talking to him at the weekend about the problem, so maybe this has helped. RobinW - do you know which supplements are supposed to help ADHD (although, I don't really think it is this, it can't hurt to know). KMG - what is SENco? Wonderwoman, sounds like our situation is very similar to yours, the teacher is going to write in his reading diary what he's been up to, as quite often when I ask him he denies things! Bayleaf, I think that the school is being very supportive, I think that the teacher genuinely wants to prevent this kind of behaviour before it becomes a real problem and he does get a 'label'. Custardo, they do provide special diets for vegetarians, and dairy/wheat intolerances - just not for fussy eaters!! Mel, they do have loads of play, the classroom has toys and the playground too, they do school work in the mornings reading, maths, computers, french etc.. and then in the afternoons they do things like arts & crafts, playing, swimming, music & movement, cooking etc... so although I don't know if they follow the Early Learning Goals, they do have a very varied day and get involved in loads of different things. Like so many of you have said, I would much rather know that he is being like this, rather than nothing be said and I think that everything is OK. The other thing that struck me is that at his Nursery, all the Nannies were young and 'cuddly', and DS was obviously one of their favourites, the teacher is an older lady and although I have seen her dish out cuddles, it doesn't look as if it comes naturally to her. DS may have had his 'nose pushed out of joint' a bit by the different type of attitude. Fingers crossed his good behaviour continues. Good to know that I'm not alone. Thanks again everyone.

Paula - I'm glad we could help and that you're feeling a bit happier about the situation - also glad to hear that the school is being supportive. A SENCO is a Special Educational needs Coordinator - every state school should have one - a teacher with special responsibility for ANY special needs physical or learning( inc extra bright kids.)
Scummy I'm really depressed to hear your description of your experience staff who don't care and won't go the extra yard never mind the extra mile to help - yes there is an awful lot expected of teachers and yes the elastic only stretches so far ( and mine isn't nearly as stretchy now as it was pre dd!)but the callousness you describe is really, really worrying. I'd be the first to admit tho' that there are plenty of bad and mediocre teachers out there ( hopefully still a minority tho'!)- I left the NUT because they were so anti appraisal and I felt it was needed if we were ever going to be able to reward GOOD teachers and encourage bad ones to improve. I don't think the situation will improve though as there is such a shortage that we just have to appoint whoever applies these days regardless of quality as someone is ( almost!) always better then no one in the classroom.

Hi Paula,
Glad your son had a better day at school yesterday. Like you we have just started a new regime - a behaviour book in our case - and so far just the threat of a bad comment in the book has bought him up short. I know where you`re coming from about the change from cuddly nannies to less cuddly teacher. My son was very well liked by his nursery staff, but I remember the sense of let down I felt at the relative coldness of his reception class teacher. I put the difference down to the change from learning through play 100% at nursery, to the emerging academic demands of school. Then he moved into year 1 and had a lovely cuddly teacher

Without wanting to start world war three, I have to agree with a lot of what Philly said regarding boys developement. RobinW I know your message implies boys develop differently, too, so in a way we're all saying the same thing. I agree with you that boys are not as mature as girls of similar age. I don't think that behaviour problems at school largely stem from boys tendency to violence as toddlers, though. My son's problems, and I see other posts here echo this, is that the violent hitting/kicking episodes are not there - its the fidgiting/lack of focus/not listening/answering back behaviour that is the school's problem. Just looking at the posts here and on other threads highlights how much lots of us are trying to modify our sons behaviour from toddlerhood onwards. I don't think we are letting them off lightly just for being boys.

Custardo, scummymummy, Mel, I too think not all teachers are gods. Mel, liked your point about not allowing access to pencils when you want recption year children to give you full attention Scummymummy, dh and I are friends with a group of primary and nursery teachers and I have been a bit taken aback at their off duty comments( OK some said jokingly) about the parents of their children. It's the parents who are to blame is a surprisingly frequent comment. Mind you this is at a school where a parent pushed the head teacher down a flight of stairs
recently, so .....

Custardo, having seen your messages I may well see if I can hover round our school sometimes, just to observe my son, his teacher and other children in action. When I am told my son has a problem, it is really difficult to set it in context of the rest of the class. Because I'm sure the rest of the class don't always hang on to the teacher's every word and meekly do her bidding. His teachers have a distinct advantage here, and I don't think they always realise how difficult it is for me as a parent to see how far away from the norm my child is.

I do realise that teacher's have a difficult job and it's different job to mine. I can see that they have to come down hard on bad attitude. My remit as a parent is to control and entertain my son, mostly. Stimulate, encourage yes, but not hard line teaching. Teachers have to do all this and teach as well and cope with lots of other pupils.

Bayleaf, BTW, I agree it's a mixture of points a, b and c!

Robinw, DS school is an independent one, so I don't think we have the SENCO. Philly, I think a lot of what you say is true too, he is one of the very youngest in the class as he's born at the end of May.

Tigermoth, ours is a chart that has different times of day on it, and he gets a smiley face or a sad face depending on how he's been. He seems really into this, so we can keep hoping.

I have experienced this every year, so far, with my ds - whenever he moves us to the next year. He is now 9 and just gone into Year 4, he is the oldest, the biggest and one of the brightest in his class, he is also one of the most sporty, energetic and mature. It is almost as if he pushes his luck with each new teacher to determine how much he can get away with. His school report last year was the first one that did not say he was 'boisterous' - we are currently going through problems with his latest teacher, however, she does seem to be dealing with him quite well - he has a behaviour book but only his good behaviour is written in it, we (ds and me) are having regular meetings with her (initially every other day, now weekly) and he is improving). I think that him knowing that his behaviour is being discussed and that he is being involved in this encouraging him to think about his behaviour - his teacher has explained to him that if he continues to be disruptive she will have to ask me to shadow him all day (you can imagine how embarrassing that would be) so that I can keep him in check and that if that does not work, she will ask the headmaster to do the same.
The threat of that seems to be working!!!
May be worth you suggesting that you have a chat with the teacher with your ds there to determine why and when he misbehaves - also could you offer to do some parent help in your son's class - maybe him knowing that you are there would be enough to remind him to behave. Good luck!!!!

In my experience, girls can be just as violent as boys, as I posted somewhere else about my nice, gentle DS1 and one of his friends.

Going back to the bits about why boys seem to be labelled as disruptive - I read (or heard?) somewhere that boys aged 4 - 5 have a huge spike of testosterone which explains perfectly why they want to race around, do things practically and generally be 'in your face', rather than sitting still like little angels (!!!??)! The next time they have such a spike is in their teens, when it hits a whopping 800% more than at birth!! Personally, I'd rather have a child with spirit and personality than a total conformist in my classroom.

Haven't read all the posts properly, but Philly, your point about boys and energy/exercise strikes a chord. My ds is very active and energetic and I think the transition from morning playgroup and then all afternoon playing football in the park/going for a long walk to sitting still and being good has been hard for him. I won't tolerate violence from him but I do feel that he needs (and I suspect this is true of many boys) lots of physical stuff and an outlet for all that energy.

Many people told me he'd be tired when he came home once he started school - not a bit of it. He seems to need to do something active to let off steam and so I try to let him where I can (weather permitting etc). We have a trampoline which can help but re the whole boy/energy thing, I think I know what you mean.

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