Can DD still do 11 plus in September or are we mad ?

[Midlifemission]

Not sure exactly where to post this but need to canvas collective MN wisdom.

Obviously school has been somewhat disjointed due to COVID and we find ourselves having to make decisions about secondary school.

We know that DD is bright and does well without making too much effort.
We have been told by her teacher she is working at greater depth for English and her recent test base SATs assessments done in class gave her good scores - her teacher described this as her already achieving what would be the benchmark at the end of year 6.
Maths she is less confident and would need to work on this. Her teacher said she achieves average scores but tends not to answer the questions she isn't confident with.

How on earth would we assess whether we should be encouraging her to try the 11+ ?

School have never mentioned it really apart from at the end of year 4 and we have missed so much time in school we haven't really given it the focus we might have if life had been different.

How does the 11+ get scored - I don't know how exceptional a Child needs to be. ( I passed it a hundred years ago but times have changed !)

Anyone got any thoughts I have no idea whether any child passes without being tutored throughout year 5 which seems to be the norm!

I don't mind if the answer is 'forget it she doesn't sound that academic it won't end well 'but equally I feel we are doing her a disservice not to think about it .

Her younger sibling is quite likely to do well as he progresses and I worry she will ask why she didn't get the same chances.

Thanks for any opinions or voices of experience!

Which 11+ area are you in? I ask as some areas have stuff like NVR, while others don't. Other than that, your DD sounds exactly like mine, (high achieving in English, needs a bit more confidence in Maths). Mine passed the Kent 11+ easily, we just sent her on an intensive course in the summer holidays to teach her how to do the NVR questions.
I'd give her a chance, particularly if she wants to do it.

hello - we are also in an 11+ area and in an extremely similar situation!

They all seem to tutor round here for it, but I wasn't sure - it's too much money for us to pay for a private tutor. It used to be that a private company did group tutoring on the school premises after school once a week and I was happy to outsource to that about now but they're not doing it because of Covid.

We bought some tutoring materials ourself (I think the company was called Learning Street? Something like that) about six months ago but we work through them really slowly and try not to push her - we just do one, maybe two tasks a day (and not every day, more like four days a week). If we were following the instructions on the tutoring material we'd be doing about five or six of them every day but we just can't fit it in. The materials SEEM quite good but it's so hard to know.

One thing I did see somewhere was advice to get some past papers (you need to get the right ones for your area/school) and do one in full in June so you know what needs to be focused on and one again in September not long before, just to give some practice of doing the test. We haven't actually done anything about that but am thinking of sorting it out in the next couple of weeks. I feel a bit clueless but think maybe the big issue with kids who don't have a tutor etc is that they'd be going in cold and the actual practicalities of doing the test might be a bit overwhelming?

We've said that she can do it, it doesn't matter at all, it's just worth having a go to open up some more choices. But inevitably, it's a bit of pressure, and I'm torn about putting more pressure on after what has been a batshit crazy year.

Some areas/schools will have closed registration already. It rather depends where you are and how competitive the places are. You can also "pass" and still not meet the criteria to be allocated a place.

As PP have said, it depends on the area and the number of grammar schools you have. If it's an area where the top 20% or so get places, then that's a different kettle of fish to an area where it's only the top 5%. Can you tell us what county/borough this is for?

Registration will have closed in most places. Check with your local authority.

Thanks for the replies. I am relieved to know we aren't alone and I haven't been told I am completely ridiculous for being so behind the curve.

I am sorry if it's a drip feed but area seemed less relevant to my first post in case it wasn't possible to consider it all.

We have until next week to register so it's technically possible . But we are in Gloucestershire so o believe that is non catchment / super selective with
5 grammars in total - one boys only. I don't know much more than that.

How much support would it be usual to get from the primary school - will they be able to advise on whether we are being overly optimistic to consider it ?
Thanks so much For any input I am in a small village where I dont feel I can talk to other parents about this !

I am not in a grammar area but there are some selective aptitude tests for comprehensive state schools here.
My experience was state primary didn’t give a shit. Even scheduled events that clashed with open evenings.

(Also small village where everyone cagey about their choices etc)

Thanks @HarrietHairbrush
I feel like a bit of an idiot that we haven't been more proactive . I can only blame Covid up to a point.

Another drip feed . Not sure how keen DD will be she is quite wedded to going to one of the local comprehensives with all her friends.

Check out the eleven plus exams forum. They have a chat section on all of the different areas so you can see how others have prepared.

We are in the same county. DS got in with no tutoring. I bought a practice papers book online which he did independently. He got in easily, not to the top grammar but our local.

Don't know about support from primary, we'd just arrived in the country and DS started the week after the test.

Thanks @kowari that's incredibly helpful
@Turmerictolly I have come across that forum but to be honest it just made me think we were too late it seemed full of people doing intense tutoring well in advance.
Maybe I will take another look.

There must be some of course but I don't know of a single child that passed the Kent Test in the last few years around here without a) tutoring or b) lots of practice at home. The grammar schools here are massively middle class (not saying those children don't deserve it, but hardly a level playing field since Covid). If your DD wants to try, go for it! A tutor friend says that the maths is often the sticking point, so maybe focus on that?

@chloworm thanks that's maybe the reality check I was expecting . This would definitely be the weakest area.

I think she’d need to improve her maths TBH and if she hasn’t practised verbal reasoning and non-verbal reasoning if they do those tests, she’ll struggle to learn the technique now. She’ll also need to practise the style of the tests as they’re not similar to anything she’ll have done before really. That said, it is possible to pass without tutoring as DS did 2 years ago.

We are your area too. Both DC had a tutor for year 5, mainly because if we'd tried to do it there would have been outright war 😄.

Many people do do it using the books and past papers - this is mainly what the tutors use to work through plus exam tips such as how to fill in a multiple choice paper and extending vocabulary.

Both tutors here used CGP books - you can get workbooks and past papers

Mine both got in, one top 150, one lower but neither wanted to go to the 'top' grammar

Give it a go - the NVR will take a little practice and then see how you get on with past papers and that will give you a good steer. Iirc if they are getting 65% + on these then you are in the right ballpark

Good luck!

She will need to be familiar with the types of questions in the CEM tests but I don't think it's too late for that. DS only did one book but you can get different ones if she needs more work on a certain section. This is the one DS had www.bookdepository.com/11-Verbal-Reasoning-Non-Verbal-Reasoning-Maths-Practice-Papers-Bumper-Book-with-4-sets-tests-Collins-11/9781844198436.

I am an 11+ tutor for glos.

It is definitely possible, the 11+ forum give the impression that you need to tutor hard for a year, you really don't.

Glos has grammar schools in Cheltenham, Gloucester and Stroud. The one in Cheltenham, Pates, is really hard to get into and by the sounds of your dds maths, I wouldn't bother.
The ones in Gloucester and Stroud are of a similar level, so she has chance.

Normally I would say, if they are working at greater depth in English and maths, then you need to do practice papers and they stand a decent chance.
Your problem is that she is not at that level in maths.
You will need to work hard between now and September, she may be able to make up the gap, she may not.

Buy the CGP books, not the 10 minute practice books, but the A4 size practice books, these ones:

books

work through them. She needs to be able to do all the maths in the books, and be getting about 75% of the questions right.

Then the assessment tests at the back are at the same level as the actual test, to get into schools in glos she needs an average across the subjects of about 65% or more.

NVR, VR and Maths are in the test (VR is basically English and includes comprehension etc)

You are working towards the CEM test, NOT the GL test, and don't be sidetracked by things you find online with loads of fiddly Verbal reasoning, you don;t need it for the CEM test.
Vocabulary is key, if she is well read and articulate, she probably has good enough vocab. But consciously adding more words to her vocab over the next 3 months is worth doing.

It doesn't cost to register for the test, and you can withdraw at any time, so register, think about it and work on it and then decide.

PM me if you like.

My dd would have probably psssed 11+ but we decided not to pressure her and she went to the comp where she was top of school which did wonders for her confidence. She then got into the grammar for 6th form. Would that be an option? It was an all girls school which encouraged stem subjects and she's just finished an engineering degree.

Ok, steppemum seems to know what she is talking about more than I do! My experience was as a parent arriving from overseas with no idea what I was doing really. Agree to just get registered and go from there, it's not a final decision.

Working on maths over the next few months will not do her any harm, she will need to work on it for secondary school anyway. You can register her and if you really don't think it is a good plan in September then you can withdraw her or just tell her that it only means she might have more options to choose between.

Thanks so much everyone this is incredibly helpful and informative.
@steppemum I really appreciate the detail you have given I will take a proper look tomorrow .
Yes I had forgotten Stroud that's too far from us we would only be looking at Gloucester schools.
I did my A levels at Pates many moons ago - I don't think I would get in nowadays!!
@Cattitudes this is very wise advice as we knew from homeschooling that the maths needed attention so I agree this will be time well spent regardless.
@dingit this is one of the things that makes my head spin too - is grammar always better ? I had a similar experience of doing well as a big fish in a small school pond. I suppose I just worry she may not achieve to her potential at the comp but I really can't know that yet.
Thanks all it's helping me think more logically. As several of you Have said there is no harm in registering!

We are in the same area as you. The primary schools won’t help you at all, irc they are t allowed to. My dcs found doing a ‘mock’ test very helpful. They had tutoring and also worked through the cgp books. A big part of the test is not being phased by the format and being able to work quickly - eg tricks in maths rather than deep understanding (the opposite of current teaching best practice!). They need to know times tables and division tables totally and immediately. Vocab is v important- learning lists of synonyms and lots of reading. My dcs had some very useful vocab cards which we did in the car every day. The non vr definitely needs practice as it gets easier the more you do.

Sorry, that should say ‘aren’t’ in the top line.