Can DD still do 11 plus in September or are we mad ?

[Midlifemission]

Not sure exactly where to post this but need to canvas collective MN wisdom.

Obviously school has been somewhat disjointed due to COVID and we find ourselves having to make decisions about secondary school.

We know that DD is bright and does well without making too much effort.
We have been told by her teacher she is working at greater depth for English and her recent test base SATs assessments done in class gave her good scores - her teacher described this as her already achieving what would be the benchmark at the end of year 6.
Maths she is less confident and would need to work on this. Her teacher said she achieves average scores but tends not to answer the questions she isn't confident with.

How on earth would we assess whether we should be encouraging her to try the 11+ ?

School have never mentioned it really apart from at the end of year 4 and we have missed so much time in school we haven't really given it the focus we might have if life had been different.

How does the 11+ get scored - I don't know how exceptional a Child needs to be. ( I passed it a hundred years ago but times have changed !)

Anyone got any thoughts I have no idea whether any child passes without being tutored throughout year 5 which seems to be the norm!

I don't mind if the answer is 'forget it she doesn't sound that academic it won't end well 'but equally I feel we are doing her a disservice not to think about it .

Her younger sibling is quite likely to do well as he progresses and I worry she will ask why she didn't get the same chances.

Thanks for any opinions or voices of experience!

Second line - schools aren’t allowed to help. No idea why ‘cos that’s the system! It is all very covert and secret, a bit of a taboo at our school. You’ve nothing to lose by registratering!

Thank you @Sittinginthesand
I feel so naive that I think I imagined school would tell us if they thought she should
Go for it .
It only dawned on me when we met her teacher the other week that really their goal is more about achieving % of pupils at expected levels at sats stage.

Other parents who aren't doing it say if you don't get a grammar place you end up not getting your choice of comp, as you have ranked them lower down the application list. No idea if there is truth in that. It worries me as I wouldn't be happy with one of the two really.

DD passed last year having done 3 practise papers and some of a NVR 10 minute tests book. She hadn't done any NVR until the summer and picked it up quickly. Her maths was also weakest but only 25% of marks so the other areas compensated for a lower mark.

I was second guessing myself about all the tutoring especially as the practise tests she did weren't amazing, did well in some sections, bombed others, but I decided to go with it and not do a summer intensive.

Not a superselective area.

No, that is not true about the places. Normally you fill in the school application form after the 11+ results so if you don’t pass you just won’t it it down. If you are borderline and apply but don’t get in then your second choice becomes your first choice. The comps are very naughty about saying ‘if you don’t put us first you may not get in’ - true but that’s because you got in somewhere else!

@Sittinginthesand

No, that is not true about the places. Normally you fill in the school application form after the 11+ results so if you don’t pass you just won’t it it down. If you are borderline and apply but don’t get in then your second choice becomes your first choice. The comps are very naughty about saying ‘if you don’t put us first you may not get in’ - true but that’s because you got in somewhere else!

Thanks I did wonder about the timeline and how this was possible !

So in theory we could register and if she took the test bit didnt achieve the marks to get a grammar place we could just apply for the comps and no one need ever know ? !

Not true about the school places at all. The criteria for deciding who gets in a comp has nothing to do with if you've put it first or fourth (if you don't get into options one to three).

Equal preference system
www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/schools/equal-preference-system

@Midlifemission if she is borderline you won't know if she has got in or not as there is no pass mark per se; it depends how many above her reject or accept her place. There is no pass or fail in the Glos system.

DD was ranked 236 I think and they take 150 but she still got a place as others will have accepted different schools. So you need to put your preferences down and if she didn't get it then you are allocated as per normal.

There is a forum which tells you how far down the rankings have still achieved a place - I'll see if I can find it! Dd1's year was about 284 iirc. Dd2 got top 50 so guaranteed a place.

www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/11plus/viewforum.php?f=16

Just be aware of the older rankings as they changed significantly when Crypt started taking girls. Also I think the new Senior school in Leckhampton in Cheltenham may mean fewer children from there apply for the grammars.

We have found the top sets at a comp over the middle sets at a grammar to be very good for our DC’s confidence. There are some great DC in those sets who are self motivated and don’t need the push of a grammar that some children cope badly with in terms of mental health - particularly the all girls one near us which is a hotbed of self harm and anorexia.

@Sittinginthesand

We are in the same area as you. The primary schools won’t help you at all, irc they are t allowed to. My dcs found doing a ‘mock’ test very helpful. They had tutoring and also worked through the cgp books. A big part of the test is not being phased by the format and being able to work quickly - eg tricks in maths rather than deep understanding (the opposite of current teaching best practice!). They need to know times tables and division tables totally and immediately. Vocab is v important- learning lists of synonyms and lots of reading. My dcs had some very useful vocab cards which we did in the car every day. The non vr definitely needs practice as it gets easier the more you do.

all this 100%

I do 11+ tutoring, but every year there are some parents who I try and persuade not to do it.

This is because their kid is going to always be on the back foot in grammar. I have 3 kids of my own who have gone/are going through the Stroud grammar schools, I would say that the pace is faster than in a comp, and so if you are not able to keep up eg in maths, then you are constantly behind.

With one of mine, who is very quiet, we looked at whether she would be better off in a comp where she was top on the class rather than middle of the class in grammar. We went for grammar in the end, and it was right for her, but it isn't always right. There are great schools around, especially in Gloucestershire, grammar isn't always better.

To me these things are key in a good secondary

1. staff turnover, and having a full set of staff. (if there are gaps in eg maths department it will be year7 who suffer
2. pastoral care
3. behaviour - low level behaviour in class can be the make or break of a school

lastly, parents seem to think that commuting time is well spent. You child may not agree with you!

DS is very good at maths and science, very average at English (avid reader, it's the writing). He's had extra help at the grammar, with spelling in year 7 and 8 and a small pull out group for English. He wouldn't have had that as an average child at a comp.

How about you try for Balacarras in Cheltenham- south west school of the decade and a comp (if you have a million pounds for a house in the area!)
Personally (anecdote alert) I know lots of DC at SHS who have had some very bad mental health issues and been pulled out, but doesn’t sound like you are near enough for that one anyway.

school applications

If you get your 11+ result and you are not sure if they will get a place. You fill in the form like this:

grammar choice
1st choice comp
2 nd choice comp

etc.

If she doesn't get a place at grammar, the 1st choice comp moves up to 1st place, and you are considered alongside everyone who put it in first place.
If you are not eligible for your 1st choice comp (eg live too far away) then you 2nd choice comp moves up to first place and you are considered alongside those who put it first.

The technicalities are not exactly like this, but in practice that it how it works. So you don't lose anything by putting down the grammar if it is a long shot.

It is not true for any school to say 'put us first because....'
The school doesn't know if you put them first or third, they just get the list of names of kids in order of eligibility.

@Hoopa

How about you try for Balacarras in Cheltenham- south west school of the decade and a comp (if you have a million pounds for a house in the area!) Personally (anecdote alert) I know lots of DC at SHS who have had some very bad mental health issues and been pulled out, but doesn’t sound like you are near enough for that one anyway.

Balacarras has a really good reputation, but it also has a very small catchment form what I understand, so you need to live quite close.

@steppemum. Agreed - very small and very wealthy 😂
I generally hear good things about Marling from friends but not about SHS, I would be interested to hear from people who do rate the school as we were scared off it for DD as we heard so many negative stories. she has flourished at the comp and enjoys being top of the heap but I do wonder sometimes how she would have found SHS, suspect she would have been too anxious for the external pressure.

[quote Hoopa]@steppemum. Agreed - very small and very wealthy 😂
I generally hear good things about Marling from friends but not about SHS, I would be interested to hear from people who do rate the school as we were scared off it for DD as we heard so many negative stories. she has flourished at the comp and enjoys being top of the heap but I do wonder sometimes how she would have found SHS, suspect she would have been too anxious for the external pressure.[/quote]
I have 2 dds at SHS.
Our experience has been positive.
I don;t really get the 'pressure'
Neither of mine seem to feel pressured.
Dd2 has lots of issues (started in primary) and SHS have been pretty good in supporting her.

Thanks everyone for the extra comments. This has to be one of the most helpful threads I have ever started on MN.

I really appreciate everyone's opinions and input.

@Hoopa yes I am aware of Balcarras. We aren't in Cheltenham. When we moved here we chose a village and not the charlton kings bubble. Very expensive - even compared to London prices.
We have one good school option nearby ( don't want to be too outing as I didn't name change ) the other I have never been keen on for DD.

I do absolutely take the point about whether a child is better off flourishing in a good comp with less pressure. I don't feel I know this about D D really so it's hard to make these decisions.
I found Pates quite inspiring at 16 as the work ethic encouraged me but I would have probably been very average at 11 and it may not have had the same effect.
What I really do worry about is how many friends I have with teens who are struggling to cope with all the pressures on them - how on earth can I know what will work best for my DD?
I suppose as PP sad you have to make the best choice at the time and be confident enough to move them if you need to.
I have a friend with a DD who has suffered from anxiety for a long,time - they sent her to a fee paying school to avoid the Comp - she struggled academically, with sports and socially there - she is now at a Gloucester grammar for A levels but she is school refusing a lot and wants to leave. So there are no guarantees whatever you try to do for the best are there ?

@steppemum

school applications

If you get your 11+ result and you are not sure if they will get a place. You fill in the form like this:

grammar choice
1st choice comp
2 nd choice comp

etc.

If she doesn't get a place at grammar, the 1st choice comp moves up to 1st place, and you are considered alongside everyone who put it in first place.
If you are not eligible for your 1st choice comp (eg live too far away) then you 2nd choice comp moves up to first place and you are considered alongside those who put it first.

The technicalities are not exactly like this, but in practice that it how it works. So you don't lose anything by putting down the grammar if it is a long shot.

It is not true for any school to say 'put us first because....'
The school doesn't know if you put them first or third, they just get the list of names of kids in order of eligibility.

Thanks for this too.

Another question - so many !
Can you put
Grammar 1
Grammar 2
Comp 1
Comp 2

Or is that not it either ? Do you choose the best grammar based on score ?

I clearly need to read up and am going to ring the schools on Monday including the good local comp as I think all this thinking has made me reflect that even the comp is an unknown in a way as no open days have been possible.

I also need to know whether we can register her for 11+ without picking a school first.

You can put more than one grammar. There would be no point in putting one that is harder to get into after an easier one, but if they are similar then that could change year to year so put in order of preference. Just make sure you have a choice on the form that you will definitely get into, last is fine, or you could be allocated any school.

Thanks @kowari makes perfect sense I am getting there !

Another question - so many !
Can you put
Grammar 1
Grammar 2
Comp 1
Comp 2

yes.

Just remember, put them in the order you want them, even if the first choice seems like a long shot.

and get your registration for the test in asap. You can always back out later.

Do PM me for more help. Happy to phone too.

Thanks again @steppemum !

It very much depends on the area you are in and whether is it super selective where sometimes you need to be to 1-2% of the ability range or has a priority catchment area as they do in Bournemouth and Poole, where more like the top 16%-20% of the ability range and roughly half of those who apply get in.
Some do tutor for a year or more Others do little more than a few past papers. A mock exam or two is VERY helpful to give you an indication of how much more your child needs to do and what their chances of getting a place are.
Things like Non Verbal and Verbal Reasoning definitely need practice but you can get books or download things from the internet to explain each type of question. Other children work better with a tutor or in a small group rather than with their parents.
If you are not using a tutor, make sure you know what type of test your child will have to sit and buy materials accordingly. CEM tests are different from GL tests, for example. Most schools applications are now open. Check the closing dates. You will have to apply for the test separately to applying for the school on the standard admissions form.
There are also independent schools with 11+ exams, but these tend to vary a lot in style. It's even more important, if looking at multiple schools, to make sure you know what each school requires. A tutor, experienced in entrance papers will likely know what is needed for their local schools.