Should increasing social mobility be a remit of universites?

[mids2019]

Entered an intriguing discussion about reasons for falling numbers of pupils entering Oxbridge from elite schools and the debate seemed to be on meritocracy in a general sense with some very powerful views on ensuring fair access to all education.

The question is will social mobility improve significantly given successive governments have tried to solve this issue with varying levels of success?.

@Delurking elsewhere it was stated that 25% of the top grades go to private and 75% to state so this would seem a fair and natural balance of students at oxbridge and perhaps others)

I agree however you need to have faith in those that allow the contextualization. Someone has to do the recognition you state and decide there is more potential there then grades suggest.

Is this necessarily a trivial exercise? I understand that both geography and school type will impact on grades acquired - the art I would imagine is determining whether someone would have gotten a certain grade from where ever or whether geography/school is the prime determinant.

It's far more complex and nuanced than you're suggesting. There are detailed data sets which inform these decisions. It's not down to one individuals opinion.

I think opportunity awareness is very important but if your outreach becomes successful in getting more applications for a given institution does this necessarily mean more contexualisation?

It may do but that's not a bad thing. It's not a dumbing down of the system. Universities are only making offers to those they believe are suitable for their course. Plus a contextual offer doesn't always turn into a student attending. Applicants can apply to 5 institutions and may get offers from all 5...deciding which university to attend is a complex process.

Many schools do not prepare students for university. Students arrive unable to cope with the idea of independent and autonomous study.

Reading the Higher Education boards on MN and the WIWIKAU group on Facebook, this ^ needs explaining to a LOT of helicopter parents too.

@TheJerkStore

I take your point about contextualisation but even with looking at social factors influencing grade at a more granular level you are still reliant to all intents and purposes on a model which hopefully will be for for purpose - I guess it's evidencing that. I agree with principle if the model is transparent.

Could you imagine the reaction of some people if someone from a disadvantaged background gained a place at Oxford with the use of contextualisation and turned it down?

@BackforGood

Interesting point

I would think A level demands some self motivated study in comparison to GCSE.

Taking the point to an extreme though couldnt a university give a student a lot of books at the start of a course and say 'self study' and could I have 9K a year - see you in 3 years. I guess universities are gauged on the quality of teaching so could it be argued there is an incentive for universities to 'spoon feed'?

I take your point about contextualisation but even with looking at social factors influencing grade at a more granular level you are still reliant to all intents and purposes on a model which hopefully will be for for purpose - I guess it's evidencing that. I agree with principle if the model is transparent.

It is transparent. Universities have a duty to be transparent about their admissions processes. This is all monitored.

Could you imagine the reaction of some people if someone from a disadvantaged background gained a place at Oxford with the use of contextualisation and turned it down?
This happens.... why wouldn't it?

Taking the point to an extreme though couldnt a university give a student a lot of books at the start of a course and say 'self study' and could I have 9K a year - see you in 3 years. I guess universities are gauged on the quality of teaching so could it be argued there is an incentive for universities to 'spoon feed'?

Not all universities concern themselves with teaching excellence. Some see the teaching of undergraduates a necessary evil.

Students now see themselves as customers and this has some huge downsides. The 9k tuition fee isn't just for tuition- it covers estates, cleaners, libraries, subscriptions to journals, careers support, disability, well being, academic support, admin staff ............To name a few

@mids2019

It is pointed out many times that state pupils tend to do slightly better in their degrees (?)

This is not true, it was widely reported a few years ago but amazingly they had published the data the wrong way around. It was picked up on by a professor.

His full report: fb77c667c4d6e21c1e06.b-cdn.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/HEFCE-blunder.pdf

Articles:

www.buckingham.ac.uk/news/ceer-detects-damaging-hefce-blunder/

www.timeshighereducation.com/blog/state-schools-versus-private-schools-hefce-sets-record-straight

@TheJerkStore

I think one of the consequences of the commercialisation of universities is that students won't expect to get 2:2s or lower. There is an increased fear of failing students from universities as effectively they could be seen as not delivering a paid for product. There are increasing number of 2:1 s and 1st s given out by universities and I don't think we are getting that more intelligent as a society. The rigour of degrees comes into question?

@TheJerkStore

But how many times has the opposite be quoted been quoted here? I think the lesson is watch what your doing with your spreadsheets......

However as the article says this will add to the debate about the direction of travel in terms of private school proportions at leading unis......

@CakesOfVersailles

The last was for you sorry

I think one of the consequences of the commercialisation of universities is that students won't expect to get 2:2s or lower. There is an increased fear of failing students from universities as effectively they could be seen as not delivering a paid for product. There are increasing number of 2:1 s and 1st s given out by universities and I don't think we are getting that more intelligent as a society. The rigour of degrees comes into question?
I'm an academic at a university and an external examiner at another so can only speak about those institutions and my spec subject but fail people if the work isn't good enough. I'm praised by my external examiner for referring /failing work that doesn't meet the correct standard and I see the same happening at the university I'm an external at.

I'm not saying grade inflation hasn't happened but at my institution we have a very clear assessment and marking policy which includes internal and external moderation.

I do occasionally get students who tell me they expect to get a certain grade so I refer them to the clear assessment guidelines and marking rubric. I've also had students remind me of how much they are paying me per hour to teach. They get very short shrift from me and a lesson in how much it costs to run degree programmes ( I happen to teach higher education policy and practice)

People are not buying their degrees. They are paying to access teaching and resources.

I think taking up a point made earlier about grammar schools in Kent where students are likely to put in applications to elite universities.

Certain schools have held up access to elite universities for years as motivation for cohorts of high achieving pupils. Oxbridge at certain schools has been a motivational drive to enhance competition amongst pupils and achieve their full potential. This is.a long established (not saying this is right of wrong ) feature of our schooling system.

The opportunity to apply to elite unis of course is open to all (and it should be) but there may exceptional young people in disadvantaged state schools that only make applications due to a great outreach event. It is uncertain how long the motivation for certain unis had been with the student or indeed the desire.

@TheJerkStore

And so it should be. It's a bit of a risk though isn't it paying 27K to attend a university and get a degree classification that may limit you.

From a student perspective won't you perhaps not apply to high tariff institutions as you can't take the financial risk of not achieving a high class degree.

It's alright for the landed gentry to get gentleman's thirds at Oxford but I couldnt afford that.

It is uncertain how long the motivation for certain unis had been with the student or indeed the desire.

Why does this matter?

And so it should be. It's a bit of a risk though isn't it paying 27K to attend a university and get a degree classification that may limit you.

That is in the students hands. University isn't for everyone.

From a student perspective won't you perhaps not apply to high tariff institutions as you can't take the financial risk of not achieving a high class degree.
Which is why universities have entry requirements. It helps students match their ability and attainment to specific courses and universities.

@TheJerkStore

I take the point about entry requirements - I'll just say this - doesn't it make it more important that contextualized grades work? The grade requirements are there for a reason so any amendment of grades has to be done with confidence.

[quote mids2019]@TheJerkStore

I take the point about entry requirements - I'll just say this - doesn't it make it more important that contextualized grades work? The grade requirements are there for a reason so any amendment of grades has to be done with confidence.[/quote]
Do you have evidence that they don't work?
What specifically do you think the issue is?

Entry requirements are a way of positioning yourself against other universities - universities can technically offer whatever they like. However, most universities will make standard offers and contextual offers. Contextual offers are underpinned by detailed data sets and are different for every university. A university should have a transparent admissions process and will publicise their contextual admissions policy. There are no cloak and dagger operations, no lowering of standards .... all the information is out there in the open.

There will always be people who play the system and there will occasionally be people who get contextual offers when they didn't necessarily need them but on the whole I can't identify any major concerns and I've been working in this sector for 20 years.

Id bd interested in what you think the issue is regarding contextual offers OP.
Do you believe it’s lowering standards?

Making decisions regarding uni or not is a complex multi layered process that starts way before application year.

Also remember that unis will make unconditional offers - is this something you regard as lowering standards OP?

@TheJerkStore

What about clearing. Universities can offer courses at below tariff and I presume that clearing applicants would be able to succeed?

Obviously the more prestigious the university the less likely to offer clearing.

It’s more about numbers
Unis want to fill their courses.

What about clearing. Universities can offer courses at below tariff and I presume that clearing applicants would be able to succeed?

Again, not a straightforward process. Universities still have minimum entry requirements during clearing. At my university the entry requirements don't drop that much and I work at a post 92. In some cases they stay the same!
University entry requirements aren't fixed - you could say you wanted 3 As or equivalent but offer an applicant 3 Bs because you liked their personal statement or they performed well at interview.
As I said - they're often just a way of positioning yourself in the market.

Obviously the more prestigious the university the less likely to offer clearing.

Not anymore... clearing is now a legitimate part of the admissions process for the vast majority of universities. The government removed the student number cap and we've had a few years of the demographics working against us ( fewer 18 year old around ) so it's been quite competitive across the sector.

You seem to have an issue with universities but I can't quite work out what you're trying to get at.....

@TheJerkStore you have been supremely patient and very knowledgable on this thread

@TheJerkStore

I don't have an issue with universities.I just find it interesting putting them in a social context and how they fit in with our educational system.

[quote Rummikub]@TheJerkStore you have been supremely patient and very knowledgable on this thread[/quote]
Thank you