Should increasing social mobility be a remit of universites?

[mids2019]

Entered an intriguing discussion about reasons for falling numbers of pupils entering Oxbridge from elite schools and the debate seemed to be on meritocracy in a general sense with some very powerful views on ensuring fair access to all education.

The question is will social mobility improve significantly given successive governments have tried to solve this issue with varying levels of success?.

@chopc

The programme builds on widening participation progress made by the University in recent years, including the use of UCAS Adjustment to reconsider candidates who exceed expectations in examinations. It is expected that the Foundation Year will further increase the proportion of Cambridge students from state schools, low progression postcodes and from areas of socio-economic deprivation.

Above is a passage from Cambridges description of a foundation course. Oxford has similar ambitions in terms of increasing the number of pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds.

I suppose the question is should this be a university remit i.e. aims to increase diversity and increase social mobility. Oxford and Cambridge to some degree have lead on this and I don't know if others will follow

Other posters have suggested there are paid teams to support outreach and achieve state d goals of increased participation from disadvantaged groups. It appears universities take this seriously.

I envisage its the universities aims to support social mobility more generally in society and I was wondering if this was acheivable.

I think it's trying to anticipate any societal change from for instance Oxford and Cambridge dropping down the leagues of university private school undergraduate proportions.

@chopc

I think when you talk about state school students you are talking about those iPod socioeconomic areas in failing schools?

Because I live I live in Kent and the grammar school students are very able and confident in their abilities and would have no qualms about applying to elite universities

My research specifically looks at first generation students, students from low socioeconomic backgrounds and students who attend schools/live in areas where participation in higher education is low.

I suppose the question is should this be a university remit i.e. aims to increase diversity and increase social mobility. Oxford and Cambridge to some degree have lead on this and I don't know if others will follow

Other posters have suggested there are paid teams to support outreach and achieve state d goals of increased participation from disadvantaged groups. It appears universities take this seriously.

All universities have to have an access and participation plan - without it they can't charge 9k fees!!

Outreach/WP/Schools and colleges liaison are often university departments in their own right. They do a huge amount of work - it's a fantastic job.

@TheJerkStore

I bet you are very good at your job.

To what extent though can schools improve to aid participation. I am guessing 6th form teachers have at least some knowledge of the HE system in this country and if they have bright capable pupils they could try and direct them accordingly.

There may be point that for a range of schools Oxbridge (and others) has always been a goal they have in mind for their pupils. This would explain the high application rate from these schools (as well as academic merit).

For schools in disadvantaged areas it will take time for such universities to be considered a goal and fostering such aims within the student body.

[quote mids2019]@TheJerkStore

I bet you are very good at your job.

To what extent though can schools improve to aid participation. I am guessing 6th form teachers have at least some knowledge of the HE system in this country and if they have bright capable pupils they could try and direct them accordingly.

There may be point that for a range of schools Oxbridge (and others) has always been a goal they have in mind for their pupils. This would explain the high application rate from these schools (as well as academic merit).

For schools in disadvantaged areas it will take time for such universities to be considered a goal and fostering such aims within the student body.[/quote]
Thank you. I'm very passionate about it!!

I believe that we should invest more in careers advice and guidance. In this country it is woefully underfunded and under appreciated.

A good, well qualified careers adviser is best placed to offer support and advice but the government failed to support the sector for years and schools often go for the cheapest option which often means unqualified and unregistered.

Many careers advisers are qualified to postgraduate level (equivalent to a teaching qualification) but they rarely get paid the equivalent of a teachers salary - this has seen all the good people go to work in universities where they're respected and paid more!!

@TheJerkStore

Career advice has probably came a long way since my day.

I guess it's instilling aspiration as well as identifying the career someone is most suited for. The question would be when the best time to target career advice is, either school or university level.

[quote mids2019]@TheJerkStore

Career advice has probably came a long way since my day.

I guess it's instilling aspiration as well as identifying the career someone is most suited for. The question would be when the best time to target career advice is, either school or university level.[/quote]
Careers education should start at primary school - that's how we tackle deeply ingrained stereotypes.
Career guidance (as in a 1:1 interview) should be available at key transition points starting with when young people choose their gcse options.

I think when you talk about state school students you are talking about those iPod socioeconomic areas in failing schools?

What does this mean ?

Career advice has probably came a long way since my day.

Not in the experience of my dc (who are 19, 22 and 24 so not that long ago). Really poor. That was at 3 different schools

Career advice has probably came a long way since my day.

Not in the experience of my dc (who are 19, 22 and 24 so not that long ago). Really poor. That was at 3 different schools

You can blame Tony Blair for killing the profession when we he made us all call ourselves personal advisers made us give advice on anything from contraception to housing benefit in addition to careers and only allowing us to work with those at risk of social exclusion......

......and Michael Gove for announcing that anyone can give careers advice and guidance and removing the statutory requirements from schools to provide careers education and work experience.

They well and truly decimated the sector and it will take us a long time to recover.

Problem is that schools will pay for bare minimum on careers.

@Rummikub

Problem is that schools will pay for bare minimum on careers.

This is a HUGE part of the problem.

The pay for careers advisers in schools is pitiful. Which is why all the well qualified one go to work at universities- you can earn double the salary

@TheJerkStore

Should careers advice be linked to raising aspiration at an early age? Giving career options but being honest about grade requirements and how support can be given?

For example a child at a deprived school may wish to be a doctor as that is a fairly visible altruistic (at times) profession. It may that the child may have to be given honest truths or alternatively supported with this career in mind e.g. A level choice and contacts made with local hospitals for work experience.

A lot of Russell group degrees are fairly academic and this suggests that students are fairly relaxed about maintaining flexibility about career options but potential careers should be at the back of the mind when starting university.

Should careers advice be linked to raising aspiration at an early age? Giving career options but being honest about grade requirements and how support can be given?

Absolutely

For example a child at a deprived school may wish to be a doctor as that is a fairly visible altruistic (at times) profession. It may that the child may have to be given honest truths or alternatively supported with this career in mind e.g. A level choice and contacts made with local hospitals for work experience.

Children will refer to jobs that they know about ( so have seen or heard of people doing) or jobs that were popular when their parents were young. Parents are the biggest influence on career decisions.

A lot of Russell group degrees are fairly academic and this suggests that students are fairly relaxed about maintaining flexibility about career options but potential careers should be at the back of the mind when starting university.
I agree to an extent BUT we need to be mindful of forcing people to make decisions before they are ready - 80% of graduate jobs don't require a specific subject which gives people a lot of flexibility.

@TueJerkStore

Interesting point about parents being a major factor in career choice.

If you going to be in of those 25% of students going to Oxford in the future that are from disadvantaged backgrounds will they still be fully influenced by parents?

For instance will very bright pupils from deprived backgrounds going to Oxbridge (or elsewhere) baulk at high status professions as they do not
fit in with parental careers?

Could this be a class issue in that a bright disadvantaged graduate doesn't want to enter a profession that would redefine him in social terms?

[quote mids2019]@TueJerkStore

Interesting point about parents being a major factor in career choice.

If you going to be in of those 25% of students going to Oxford in the future that are from disadvantaged backgrounds will they still be fully influenced by parents?

For instance will very bright pupils from deprived backgrounds going to Oxbridge (or elsewhere) baulk at high status professions as they do not
fit in with parental careers?

Could this be a class issue in that a bright disadvantaged graduate doesn't want to enter a profession that would redefine him in social terms?[/quote]
Parents are the biggest influence but not the only one and in my research parents tenders to be very supportive of their child's aspirations but they often didn't know how to help, especially if they hadn't attended university themselves.

A lot of it comes down to fitting in..... I do a lot of work looking at cultural capital- so knowing the right cultural codes, norms and rules and how to apply them in certain situations. This can have a huge influence on university choice.

This is worth a watch and reinforces your POV the jerk store.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000772n

It’s called
“How to break into the elite”

It was about the secret language and unconscious bias of recruiters

@Rummikub

How do elites form. It can be argued that Oxbridge produced elites (self reinforcing) but will the elite still be formed to quite the same extent as it becomes more diverse?

Is this about breaking into the elite or breaking elites?

The elites are a closed rank. Too many layers to break through.
IMO Oxbridge reinforced the elite. I know there’s now increasing diversity and that may have an impact st sine point.

If you have t watched the programme it’s worth watching as it shows the barriers in place

@Rummikub

Will do.

I think it will be interesting to see if increased diversity at Oxbridge does change the make up of British society to some extent.

It may elites will be formed from relatively wealthy private school undergraduates else where

We are currently seeing the elite formed from schooling/university 20 years ago so it may be a while before we are the true effects of current out reach drives.

This was touched on I think by a PP but I have noticed that as Oxford and Cambridge (and other RG/elite universities) are making significant efforts to recruit more students from state schools/ challenging backgrounds / areas of social economic deprivation etc., graduate employers like law and accountancy firms are (also in the name of social mobility) widening the pool of universities from which they recruit to include less prestigious institutions in an attempt to move away from having intakes dominated by Oxbridge graduates. It seems a little unfair that a bright student who achieved a place at Cambridge against the odds from a poor school will then be considered “privileged” when applying for jobs because they have been to Cambridge.

@Rummikub

It’s called “How to break into the elite”

It was about the secret language and unconscious bias of recruiters

Great programme! I make my students watch it.

Does anyone know how to access the programme now as it's no longer available on iplayer (how to break into the elite)

I think another thing you have to consider is that if an institution becomes out of reach to the 'elite' e.g. through quotas they will swing to another institution and being to prop that up. Oxford and Cambridge have been built up through centuries of grants and endowments and famous alumni - but it is very possible for there to be a cultural swing to a different university in just a generation or two.

It may sound outlandish but there has already been a push towards American Ivy League universities - soon that may become the done thing. Alternatively, a UK university may be the target. It just takes a few trendsetters - for example see how St. Andrews surged in popularity when Prince W went there.

Of course I don't mean that universities should abandon plans to be more diverse and inclusive - just that it may not change the overall picture. Suddenly instead of an Oxford degree opening doors it will be an XYZ University degree - because it wasn't really about the university, it was about the club.