Should increasing social mobility be a remit of universites?

[mids2019]

Entered an intriguing discussion about reasons for falling numbers of pupils entering Oxbridge from elite schools and the debate seemed to be on meritocracy in a general sense with some very powerful views on ensuring fair access to all education.

The question is will social mobility improve significantly given successive governments have tried to solve this issue with varying levels of success?.

I'd rather see preparation for university improved.

Why protect the elite and their domination of prestige careers?

Able students come from all walks of life but they don’t tend to have access to eg tutors, contacts for work experience, role models, money etc

It is about the club.
That’s what programme I linked to discussed.
Recruiters recruit those that are like them.

@metellaestinatrio

Exactly. If you wish a more socially mobile society you need joined up thinking. Decisions made by one institution may have societal impact elsewhere.

It could be argued that a disproportionate of Oxbridge grads in positions of influence is justified if oxbridge grads are the cream of talent in this country. (Actually you could define that as meritocratic?)

@CakesOfVersailles

I was trying to make that point on another thread and I think this will be increasingly seen.

I posted a link that showed how private schools, oxbridge and elite societal positions were linked (you occasionally get these piece in the press). With decreasing private school pupils at oxbridge are they going to go elsehwere and still have the routes in life still open that once were? I think it is an open question.

I think a question is will this increase the relative prestige of oxbridge alternative universities in society as the elite possibly reforms from these unis?

I agree with age does not necessarily mean prestige...look at the Church of England. Vast wealth, impressive buildings, historical links to other powerful inistitutions....now many would say anachronistic.

If Google/Facebook/Amazon/Apple got together and built a multi billion pound centre for computing science in the UK tomorrow I beleive you would have an instantly prestigoius institution...beating even ancient prestige.

Exactly. If you wish a more socially mobile society you need joined up thinking. Decisions made by one institution may have societal impact elsewhere.

You're assuming there isn't already joined up thinking ........
Universities don't so these things on a whim. Decisions are heavily influenced by research and data. Universities have to submit access and participation plans which are monitored by the Office for Students.
There is a national collaborative project which works on a local partnership level - these partnerships see universities working collaboratively. This is one area where we see universities working together.

It could be argued that a disproportionate of Oxbridge grads in positions of influence is justified if oxbridge grads are the cream of talent in this country. (Actually you could define that as meritocratic?)

Meritocracy is a myth!! Yes we are seeing more state school entrants to Oxbridge but you need to look at these schools. These are very high preforming schools - I know two of the schools/colleges that made the top 20 very well.

@BackforGood

We still see students from low socioeconomic backgrounds or those that are first generation students apply to middle to low ranking, local universities even when they have the required entry requirements for more elite institutions. I've lost count of the amount of times a student has told me ' people like me don't go to places like that' when discussing attending elite universities.

I think there is a certain amount of 'chicken and egg' to be looked at.

I have my 3rd dc now in her first year, so have spent a lot of the last 8 years of so looking at Universities with one dc or another, and also reading the Higher Education Threads on here and the facebook group WIWIKAU (What I wish I knew about University).

You regularly get a poster asking "Is Exeter like they say - very white and full of Upper or upper middle class pupils" or "Is Bristol full of students who went to Private school" etc . Overwhelmingly, people answer 'yes'. Then a poster will come along and say 'it shouldn't matter if people are different from yourself, look at the course'. I agree with that, in theory but I also know that your dc is most likely to succeed if they are happy where they are at university.
Now a big part of me, and the way I've hoped to bring my dc up is to believe in themselves and that they are as good as anybody else in the world but 18 yr olds vary in maturity and vary in confidence. They are already leaving home and going right out of their comfort zone. If you can give them some familiarity and remove some of those concerns, that is going to help them settle in much better.

The 'chicken and egg' part comes because people are honest enough to say 'yes' to those question, then it is likely to mean that, once again, the next intake is also not very diverse, and so the problem continues.
(Apologies to anyone at Exeter and Bristol, those are just 2 I see regularly asked about)

This

Yes this is what I thought too. That’s it’s high performing state schools in decent areas that are accessing Oxbridge.

@TheJerkStore

Do universities work together? Theoretically they should work together to ensure degrees are of a similar standard (are they...discuss)

The point with Oxbridge (or other elite universities) working with other universities to facilitate entrance should happen but what extent can it?

Meritocarcy is a myth? Possibly at the moment but I think with oxbridge reducinf the proportion of private school children are we starting to see progress. By you own admission (and own talents) you admite outreach is working. Are we starting to see the fruits of that?

100 years ago gender equality in the workplace was a myth.....now it isn't. Social change takes time but it does happen. Someone above mentioned a 2 generation period for the results of these current drives to be seen

Oxford have made the ambition to recruit 25% of students from deprived backgrounds. If you take that on face value then these will be children not necessarily from high performing state schools. Even with a higher intake from high performing state schools it is a change.

Do universities work together? Theoretically they should work together to ensure degrees are of a similar standard (are they...discuss)

In some respects they do ....not in the development of degree courses although we do have quality standards to adhere to, but we certainly don't work in silos.
For example:
We work as external examiners at each others' universities
We work on research together
Widening participation and outreach works best as a collaborative approach
We share best practice

The point with Oxbridge (or other elite universities) working with other universities to facilitate entrance should happen but what extent can it?

I'm not sure what you mean here?

Meritocarcy is a myth? Possibly at the moment but I think with oxbridge reducinf the proportion of private school children are we starting to see progress. By you own admission (and own talents) you admite outreach is working. Are we starting to see the fruits of that?

Outreach is working in the respect that we have more non-traditional students attending university but we are a long way off seeing equality across the types of university people attend - a very long way off!

100 years ago gender equality in the workplace was a myth.....now it isn't. Social change takes time but it does happen. Someone above mentioned a 2 generation period for the results of these current drives to be seen

We do not have equality in the workplace - and in the last year we have lost some of the progress that had been made.

I’m not sure That sex Equality has been achieved in the work place though.

Apologies....relative equality in the work place...compared to 100 years ago. (I think voting at this point mighnt have been an option).

@mids2019

Apologies....relative equality in the work place...compared to 100 years ago. (I think voting at this point mighnt have been an option).

Women's participation in the labour market is my other area of research. Yes it's better than 100 years ago but we are still a way off equality.

We also need to raise aspirations at schools too. Because if someone is so badly taught at sixth form that they can only get a C despite being talented then they’ll struggle to get up to speed at Oxbridge.

Yes, there are exceptions to every rule but for eg chemistry if you aren’t taught well enough to get an A at least at A level then you’re in a whole world of pain at Oxbridge reading NatSci or Chemistry. And state schools often seem to be focussed on getting everyone to a passing grade. Obviously many manage better than that but I’m sure universities can’t do it on their own. And please don’t let’s set people up to fail (Cambridge don’t offer resits I believe...if you fail, you’re out).

Disclaimer...I’m private school, Cambridge educated, from a very privileged background.

@DelurkingAJ

We also need to raise aspirations at schools too. Because if someone is so badly taught at sixth form that they can only get a C despite being talented then they’ll struggle to get up to speed at Oxbridge.

Yes, there are exceptions to every rule but for eg chemistry if you aren’t taught well enough to get an A at least at A level then you’re in a whole world of pain at Oxbridge reading NatSci or Chemistry. And state schools often seem to be focussed on getting everyone to a passing grade. Obviously many manage better than that but I’m sure universities can’t do it on their own. And please don’t let’s set people up to fail (Cambridge don’t offer resits I believe...if you fail, you’re out).

Disclaimer...I’m private school, Cambridge educated, from a very privileged background.

Absolutely. Many schools do not prepare students for university. Students arrive unable to cope with the idea of independent and autonomous study.

I’m sure most teachers want to help students achieve their full potential.
However they are limited by constraints of access to
resources, class sizes, networks.

@Rummikub

I’m sure most teachers want to help students achieve their full potential. However they are limited by constraints of access to resources, class sizes, networks.

Oh yes, I'm not blaming teachers! It's they system at fault.

Sorry that was in response to
DelurkingAJ.

Resources time class sizes and money all affect support available.

There’s a great charity called Into University that speaks to school children at all stages from KS1 onwards which encourages them to go to university.

If you don’t know anyone who went to university apart from your teachers & doctor you don’t know what different professional jobs there are, I think this is why law is so popular, there are masses of tv programmes & films which feature lawyers. I didn’t know anyone who’d been to university when I was a child apart from the teachers at school, none of my parents friends had been or even stayed on for A levels.

@DelurkingAJ

Interesting because around 30 odd % of A levels are now awarded at A and A* level. What would you say the minimum offer should be so that a student could successfully engage with Natural Sciences?

Are you in danger of outreach selecting candidate who scrape A grades and then struggle in degrees?

It is pointed out many times that state pupils tend to do slightly better in their degrees (?)

Its hard to fail people though isn't it. Taking someone off their degree would mean

(1) Explaining to an employer that you failed to get a degree. Many grad employers stipulate 2:1 and above.

(2) Loss of money ( £9000 fees) that wouldn't be reimbursed if starting a degree elsewhere.

(3) General hold up in life

Would it be fair to do an outreach scheme and potentially remove those that have been reached from degrees?

It already is but there's a limit to what they can do, the kids who have fallen behind in education eg dropped out at gcse level cannot be given places in the hope that they can magically keep up with those far ahead academically. In reality there's only so much wriggle room do the most disadvantaged can't take advantage of contextual offers because they don't have a levels.

Outreach programmes are very good, my dd attended one at Cambridge but there was no chance of a place for her because 2 of her teachers left suddenly in the second year and one wasn't replaced for over a term, the other took 6 weeks consequently the only students to get above a d were native speakers of those languages (eg mum was French, dad was Spanish). Crap school can't be dealt with by universities

100% agree that we have to provide schools with the resources to enable all children to have equality of opportunity. And that should go hand in hand with the outreach work that universities do.

I believe that the standard offer is currently AAA. I don’t know what proportion of sixth formers hit that. It isn’t going to be 30% that manage it across the board. But I’d be fascinated to see those numbers and see them split by school type (including comprehensive vs grammar).

@minniemoocher those kind of stories make me so cross (not at anyone but at the situation). DH had similar 20 years ago and his grades then prevented him from applying for some jobs!

I think you're mixing up outreach and contextual admissions OP.

Outreach is primarily about opportunity awareness and raising aspirations and isn't necessarily linked to an admissions process.

Contextual admissions are underpinned by research and data. It's not, and never has been, about letting just anyone in! It's about acknowledging that a young persons grades may not be fully representative of their potential. It recognises that some young people are disadvantaged by where they live and what school they attend.

@TheJerkStore

I agree however you need to have faith in those that allow the contextualization. Someone has to do the recognition you state and decide there is more potential there then grades suggest.

Is this necessarily a trivial exercise? I understand that both geography and school type will impact on grades acquired - the art I would imagine is determining whether someone would have gotten a certain grade from where ever or whether geography/school is the prime determinant.

I think opportunity awareness is very important but if your outreach becomes successful in getting more applications for a given institution does this necessarily mean more contexualisation?