Are top private schools getting fewer oxbridge offers?

[Ijustwanttoask]

Just read in the papers about the drop in Oxbridge offers to Eton in the last few years. Is there a same trend for other big name public schools and top London day schools too?

In the past years, these schools generally happily announce the numbers of Oxbridge offers they get around this time of the year but I haven't seen much for 2021.

* Title edited by MNHQ by request* **

@dipdips I think you are misreading my message, I am by no means trying to belittle anyone. What I tried to say is that uni entry should purely be based on abilities and suitability. And grass is not always greener on the other side. And like @SouthLondonMommy said, money doesn't buy better grades or brilliance. If one is a gem, one will always shine, no matter where one comes from. These unis are very good at spotting people with potentials.

These unis are very good at spotting people with potentials.

and then making a contextual offer.

Yes I'm definitely from another era, when one could still get into Oxbridge purely based on academic performance.

@Drminime 'One' might be a gem but it is very difficult to shine if you are a carer to your parent and up early to dress and feed them before school, or if you are suffering from FAS which has given you learning disabilities or if you have severe anxiety but can't afford private counselling and have to wait for CAHMS which is currently taking months or have to share a homeschool space with 4 siblings and don't have anyone to help you with it because both your parents are out at the type of work that involves actually leaving the house. Or if you can't afford the text books for your chosen A level subjects.

I don't think I misread you at all. Your 'this and that' is someone's life, someone's struggle. That one throw away comment shows me exactly who you are and what you believe. I feel lucky that I get to meet the most amazingly intelligent children from all walks of life, but those who have it toughest really do need some help with their shine just like the children at fee paying schools are given.

These threads always seem to assume private/independent schools are all £20k/£30k elitist institutions

The thread title specifically mentions top private schools and goes on to mention Eton, most of which of these are in the top price bracket.

Yes I'm definitely from another era, when one could still get into Oxbridge purely based on academic performance

Which is exactly what happens now. Do you really think they are admitting subpar pupils just because they come from disadvantaged backgrounds?

@Drminime

money doesn't buy better grades or brilliance. If one is a gem, one will always shine, no matter where one comes from. These unis are very good at spotting people with potentials.

This just couldn’t be more wrong as shows your level of privilege.

These are the DC's who will be squeezed out of Oxbridge. They all end up in other v.good Unis, they have to go somewhere, right, who will then be accused of not being socially diverse enough ie: Durham, Imperial, St Andrews, Bristol, UCL, LSE, Exeter, Bath.

All universities are very aware of the demographics of their student body. They have to provide evidence of what measures they have in place to ensure fair access through an access agreement in order to be able to charge the full fees of £9k +.
This isn't anything new and it certainly just an Oxbridge issue.

First generation students and students form lower socioeconomic groups are two thirds less likely to attend an elite university when compared with second generation and wealthier students. Given that attending an elite university is more likely to see you earn more and enter more elite professions (a whole other thread!) then it is important that we look to redress this imbalance.

It is not about lowering standards - it is still incredibly competitive to get a place a Oxford but it's about understanding that we aren't all starting from the same point and that context matters.

This isn't anything new and it certainly just an Oxbridge issue.

Isn't just an oxbridge issue

The problem with quotas is who decides what the 'correct level' is?

What's your goal for widening participation levels @TheJerkStore - when % levels exactly match those in society?

And what makes a university 'elite' in the first place, if not wealth and connections? If, in a decade's time, the money and connections have found Oxbridge no longer welcoming and have moved to make Durham and St.Andrews the 'new elite' will there then be a collective stamping of feet and cries of "it's not fair" and "we want that!"

What I can't understand, is why people can't see that it is precisely what they claim to hate (money and connections) which creates and supports what they claim to want (an elite university).

Yep. Was bound to happen.
However let’s not fool ourselves that Oxbridge are filling their colleges with disadvantaged kids.
Just middle class kids who happen to go to state school.

Yes I'm definitely from another era, when one could still get into Oxbridge purely based on academic performance.

This hasn't changed. In fact it's more about academic performance now instead of having the 'correct' cultural, social or economic capital.

Apologies for offending anyone of you who feel offended. And apologies for giving the impression of the "privileged ". Well deserved "virtual guillotine".

@TheJerkStore as a fellow academic I also wonder whether you would agree that even from a societal point of view - having so many overtrained but not always smart students coming out of our 'great' universities is also not ideal.

What I see every year are over tutored and somewhat entitled kids expecting to do brilliantly well at their degree and basically not being able to get their 1st because frankly, they are not as smart as they think they are. And this is not a one-off - I would say that it's an acute problem in top universities in the UK (esp. outside Oxbridge/Imperial who interview anyone and therefore it's actually hard to get in if you are not very bright). Now, of course, following Graeber's idea of bullshit jobs - most of the time, it's not such a problem that they are not very smart because you don't have to be all that smart for most of the jobs they are going for - you just have to fit in, look the part and be semi-not stupid etc......nonetheless, from a societal point of view I would actually like it if smart people got to the top - I just dont see it in the current climate.

I actually think that Oxbridge are not the worst - because they do weed out the ones who are not smart. I've yet to meet an Oxbridge graduate who is dim (though they may be unpleasant) - it's places coming behind Oxbridge that are much more prone to this especially as we dont have admissions tutors anymore, no one interviews - the approach is mainly pile them high, sell them expensive type of thing

So no - positive adimissions does not bring down standards - it actually raises them beyond those that look good on paper

@HelloMissus

Yep. Was bound to happen. However let’s not fool ourselves that Oxbridge are filling their colleges with disadvantaged kids. Just middle class kids who happen to go to state school.

No it's a farce. Our local, Ofsted outstanding, 6th form college in very middle class leafy SE suburb (where average house prices are £600k upwards and most within a mile are £1m+) is on the list for contextual offers from some RG universities, based on the fact that there is one council estate on the edge of their catchment.

@Drminime I can now see that you are a great person - able to listen and admit when wrong (I had to do the same further up thread about something else.) Friends?

I went to oxbridge. My children will probably have happier, more sociable lives if they become plumbers.

@OnlyTeaForMe
But surely the universities will remain elite because the bright underprivileged kids will go on after their degrees and get brilliant jobs and put money back in to the university? What is the difference? Only the starting point of the students, not the end point.

The problem with quotas is who decides what the 'correct level' is?
There isn't a quota - not since New Labour's disastrous '50% of school leavers' policy ( which was actually met last year)

What's your goal for widening participation levels @TheJerkStore - when % levels exactly match those in society?

My goal? That your family background and school attended doesn't prevent you from reaching your potential.
This is such a complex area and it is heavily data driven. Priorities change depending on what the data shows us. When I first started working in WP the goal was to increase applications from non traditional students, specifically first generation students.
In the last data set we could see that first generation students now account for close to 50% of all applicants BUT we could see that they were more likely to attend a lower ranking, local university even when they had the qualifications to attend an more elite provider. This is something I'm currently looking at.
We also know that white working class boys are underrepresented in HE so there are specific projects looking at address this.

Everything we do is driven by data and the data tells us where there are inequalities.

And what makes a university 'elite' in the first place, if not wealth and connections? If, in a decade's time, the money and connections have found Oxbridge no longer welcoming and have moved to make Durham and St.Andrews the 'new elite' will there then be a collective stamping of feet and cries of "it's not fair" and "we want that!"
This isn't the definition we work to. We consider:
League tables
Research excellence
Teaching excellence
Graduate Employability figures ( level of students in graduate jobs, not just any job)
Whether they are a 'selective' university or 'recruiting' university
International reputation ( top 100, top 300 etc.)

Alumni donations don't feature.

What I can't understand, is why people can't see that it is precisely what they claim to hate (money and connections) which creates and supports what they claim to want (an elite university). confused

This isn't what makes an elite university. Maybe that will help with the confusion??

@OnlyTeaForMe - out of curiosity - which ones are these? Our one uses a very complicated system that frankly cuts out most kids.

@Drminime

Yes I'm definitely from another era, when one could still get into Oxbridge purely based on academic performance.

I went to an Oxbridge college in 'another era' too. There were many very very intelligent people there, from both independent and state schools. There was also a filler layer of quite bright people from independent schools who absolutely never would have made the grade if they hadn't gone through school in 10-15 person classes, with private tutors, with supportive parents, with teachers who knew exactly which college to apply for, what to write on your UCAS form and how to handle yourself at interview. There were notably few other people of colour, and both students and dons liked to tell me how unusual or impressive it was for me to have got to where I did - assumptions and prejudice abounded. Or maybe you feel that 'in our day', there just weren't any BAME students who could handle the academic pressure?

@OnlyTeaForMe Could you PM me details of that college would be interested to chat to them. If only 6th form then they can't be well set up for contextual as it also takes in to consideration GCSE destination?!

as a fellow academic I also wonder whether you would agree that even from a societal point of view - having so many overtrained but not always smart students coming out of our 'great' universities is also not ideal.

I think universities need to be very mindful of this. Those that over recruit into areas which have low employability prospects end up having this come back to bite them when the employability metrics are compiled. Involving people who understand employability and the labour market in the planning of courses helps.

I believe in the intrinsic value of education and believe that any degree has the potential to be valuable.
My DH runs a university careers service and is constantly frustrated by some departments over recruiting or lowering the entry req's as it's his team that gets the blame when they don't get jobs!

@TheJerkStore - although that would surely depend on the uni.....we have so many degrees that are frankly useless but being based in London with a wonderful reputation all of our graduates get into fabulous graduate schemes. So thats fine.

[quote sarahloopy]@TheJerkStore - although that would surely depend on the uni.....we have so many degrees that are frankly useless but being based in London with a wonderful reputation all of our graduates get into fabulous graduate schemes. So thats fine.[/quote]
It's a complex subject with no easy answer!
Universities want students and need fees but employability is a key metric which directly feeds into reputation.
And of course reputation of individual universities can make a difference.

At my university if we are developing new courses then we need to show we've taken into account labour market info and our competitors performance with regards employability ( including aspirational competitors)

@TheJerkStore

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions - interesting!

With regard to what you use to consider what is an 'elite' university, you mentioned (amongst others):
League tables
Research excellence
Teaching excellence
Graduate Employability figures

But I would argue that it's hard to unbundle the impact of wealth/privilege from some of these e.g.

• League table positions are partly influenced by the UCAS points of incoming students based not just on A level results but on a myriad of other qualifications including music/ drama/ dance exams, which are much more prevalent in independent/grammar schools ( as is a 4th A level). It's no coincidence that the 'Top 10' universities in league tables often co-incide with the universities with the highest level of private school students.
• Graduate prospects - are these due to the university itself, or simply a continuation of helpful family/independent school contacts for internships/ work experience etc?