Are top private schools getting fewer oxbridge offers?

[Ijustwanttoask]

Just read in the papers about the drop in Oxbridge offers to Eton in the last few years. Is there a same trend for other big name public schools and top London day schools too?

In the past years, these schools generally happily announce the numbers of Oxbridge offers they get around this time of the year but I haven't seen much for 2021.

* Title edited by MNHQ by request* **

@SouthLondonMommy but there are so few bursaries that it doesn't really mean it it needs blind this end does it? Realistically only children attending fee paying schools are gaining access to the right sort of support from advisors - and a teeny tiny percentage of those children are bursary students (apart from Eton who have a good percentage of bursary students.) So it is still, from the UK end, based really on having sizeable means?

@Labobo my DD's 6th form college get in 10-20 each year but there's 1500 intake (over 3000 students)

@nolanscrack That's great - thanks!

Needs blind refers to the universities admission process which it is.

However, I suspect the majority of applications from the UK probably come from those on higher rather than lower incomes as most UK students wouldn't even know where to begin.

Admissions to I've league universities is extremely difficult (much harder than when I got in!) They accept only 5% of applicants and exceptional grades and SAT scores is only the beginning of what you need to demonstrate. I wouldn't suggest its the easier alternative to Oxbridge at all.

@SouthLondonMommy I was definitely displaying my ignorance in writing that, however I think the broader point I was making was more about the type of parent who thinks 'Oxbridge or bust' and might not think any other university was as prestigious (wrongly!) It can be like a mantra to some parents, ignoring the amazing opportunities at other UK University's, even (gasp) ones that aren't RG.

I teach in an independent school and follow my former pupils’ progress with interest. There are definitely more of them heading to the USA and a lot seem to be offered specialist sport scholarships/bursaries. If you’ve paid £30,000 on school fees, it isn’t a great deal more to pay for tuition fees in the USA if you are wealthy. The focus on getting into Oxford and Cambridge is definitely going and, as I wrote earlier, I do wonder if this will affect their shine and desirability in general. I’m state school educated so take no pleasure in saying it, but a lot of the status of Oxbridge is the perceived networking potential. There is a bigger debate about genuine social mobility here.

If you want to get into a top US uni, top grades are a given. You need to be able to show extras like triple grade 8s in music/ballet/lamda, county sport, deputy head girl, running the social initiative club, x work experiences etc. You need to stand out in your applications. Obviously, the top private schools sell themselves on all of that so the fit to top US uni is arguably better than Oxbridge anyway.

I went to Cambridge. Even in my days, the students coming from top boarding schools found Cambridge rather boring and they were not as wowed by the facilities as the rest because they had already experienced all of that (and facilities in top private schools have improved immensely in the last 20 years).

So I think the international elite, after a top U.K. independent school experience, tend to be looking for another new “top” experience, and Oxford and Cambridge are not necessarily their top choices anymore. Many would choose Yale/Harvard etc over Oxford, if offered both. Also 20 odd years ago for privileged British children Oxford was still free or 1000 pounds a year, it is now quite expensive too, so the extra investment to go abroad to experience something different is there, from a financial perspective too.

Oxbridge has historically dominated the halls of power including politics, media, the law etc. I think what will lead to more change is to actually diversify recruitment and expand the narrow focus on Oxbridge being the main or only path to success.

As an American I find it really odd that people put their secondary school's on their CVs here! All countries are obsessed with status and prestige but the UK truly takes it to another level. So much of all of this is branding and exclusivity which dovetails with the wider class system perfectly.

Been very fun chatting with all of you and having a spirited intellectual debate during lockdown!

The outreach to state schools is fantastic.

My son and his friends are attending online open days at Cambridge this week (Two full days), they have applied for residential weeks this summer aimed at kids from state schools at Oxford.

I am impressed at how much supportive information they are being given.

Hmmm need to rtft. We’re about to decide on an academically selective independent for Ds from state primary, no tutoring

@ClarasZoo

There are lots of inequalities that I am only just beginning to fully understand, as my children are now year 12 and 13. They have a background of both state and private, before I get flamed. One child private, one state.

1. Private schools pick the easier exams. There is no doubt that getting a 9 at GCSE is harder than getting an A* at IGCSE.
2. Friend's child at private school has been told she can keep sitting mocks till she evidences the A level grade she needs for her university choice.
3. Private schools gave higher CAGs last year and probably will this year.
4. For medicine universities look at GCSE grades to allocate interviews - there is a bias to the private school pupils who sat easier exams and got A*s.
5. Oxbridge contextualise so state school pupils get in much easier with the same A level profile.
6. Some other universities hand out easier offers to state educated sixth formers if their school is on their lists.
7. If you have a bright child at sixth form and they want to go to Oxbridge it is a disadvantage to keep them or put them in private school.

Interesting do other posters have the same experience?

That’s just a general question not to pp who did list specifically

@MarshaBradyo - I would actually disagree with @ClarasZoo's suggestion that you should move to a state school for 6th form. Realistically for most of the top unis they only give out contextual offers if you live in a really poor area plus went to a really really bad school. I would never suggest that parents do that on the off chance their kid might get a contextual offer. Unis are not stupid - thye wont give a contextual lower offer to a kid from a good state school - so if you want to get your kid into Oxbridge keep them in a private school.

And again dont confuse causation with correlation - yes, fewer students might be going to Oxbridge from a particular private school - this doesnt mean it is harder for them to get in. As others have said - it might be because fewer kids strive to go, or perhaps some apply to Oxbridge plus unis abroad and choose to go there.

Loving the slightly sniffy posts that if they let in too many oiks Oxbridge will lose its shine and be downgraded 🙄😁. Too funny!

Oscarmum thanks that’s really helpful. Our state is a very good one in good area so that’s useful to hear.

MrsT far better to have clever people from all walks of life together I reckon!

@MsTSwift

Loving the slightly sniffy posts that if they let in too many oiks Oxbridge will lose its shine and be downgraded 🙄😁. Too funny!

To be fair, I don't think that's what people are saying.

The point made was that there is a lot of private funding that supports many of the things that contribute to making Oxbridge prestigious in the first place. If that funding goes elsewhere then yes, there will be an impact on the overall Oxbridge experience.

Have a look at the 'giving' page for Trinity College Cambridge: www.trin.cam.ac.uk/alumni/giving-to-trinity/
Yes, there is support for bursaries and outreach, but also for Research Funds, The Boat Club, The Choir etc.

Alumni funding universities and top independent schools is a big thing. I know a fair few people who support multiple bursaries at their old school, eg Eton. I think it is tax efficient to do so if you are a high earner.
It has long been a thing in the US that if you make it big, you give back to your “School”. In turn, they might look more favourably on your child when he or she applies. With Brexit/Covid etc if the rich don’t give to Oxbridge much anymore, it isn’t a good thing, even if admissions become fairer.

The last reunion I went to at Cambridge I was told to please remember them in my will, even if it is a small amount. I guess if every alumni dying left them a few thousand it would make a difference. However, here it is not the done thing to donate large sums to your college and then get your child in at university level. At independent school level, not entirely sure...

@TheJerkStore

For example, look at grades and profiles without volunteering names, backgrounds & schools?

But in this case background and school attended is important.

It's not about lowering standards or just letting anyone in. Getting a place at an elite university or medical school is still incredibly competitive. Contextual offers are about recognising that it's not an equal playing field.

A big issue we have is that first generation students and students from lower socioeconomic backgrounds are less likely to even apply to elite universities despite meeting the specified entry requirements because they don't think they will fit in 'because people like them don't go to universities like that'.

TheJerkStore....you demonstrate my point to the T

By taking into consideration background and school attended you are purposefully seeking to tip the balance in the opposite direction and instead reverse the unfairness in the opposite direction.

My suggestion of making the process blind was to make the process fair to all and not just to state kids.

I accept there is a case for it being an unlevel playing field but as we have seen with some of the posts here, there are many reasons why folks don't always gravitate to Oxbridge of their own choice.

My position is clear, I am not ideologically aligned to contextual offers like many others on this thread.

If you care to take a look from the other perspective.....not sure if many would bother but let's say you did.....how demotivating do you think it is for all those hard working students to be pipped to the post to any Uni place because they were born in a era where it is now a disadvantage to have been born in to a family that has worked their pants off to put them through independent schooling.

Another perspective is that it is setting a dangerous precedence for not rewarding the highest performing students (whatever the measure is for this - grades, interview, TSA, etc..?)....we are in a global economic race and rewarding the next best students is not the way to win this

I agree that the field needs to be levelled but contextual offers is not the way forward. We need to find another way so as to not disadvantage anyone in this (potentially) life defining process.

If there are 2 candidates and one is from an independent school and another from a state comp.....we cannot simply say that the state comp candidate automatically trumps the other candidate purely based on their background.....this is simply reinforcing the very opposite of the perceived advantage that has been offered to the independent kids

@MsTSwift
I’m not sniffy about state schools at all. I went to one and felt I got a very good deal! I just thought it was relevant to say I have noticed that the high-ability, public school children I know (as a teacher) are no longer aiming for Oxbridge but the Ivy League colleges and other universities like Bristol, St Andrew’s and Durham. Perhaps it is because they aren’t getting the offers from Oxbridge but they are pack animals and I think it will snowball. I hope the clever state school children will thrive at Oxford and Cambridge but I worry that the social connections that make working life easier will move elsewhere if independent school children don’t feel as if they stand a chance of getting in.

Musicaldilemma is quite right to say that the American colleges are offering privately-educated children much more than the beautiful quads, old buildings and traditions so many have already enjoyed at their public schools for five years. The skills gained at independent schools are also valued by American colleges so it makes sense to apply to a college which wants what they can offer.

I’m enjoying the discussion on this thread very much. Interesting to see the different perspectives.

keepyourkidsafe
This was the topic of my PhD ( and masters before that). I teach, research and write about social mobility and fair access to higher education. I've been involved in widening participation my entire career.
Believe me - I've looked at all perspectives and have a very good understanding of inequality and disadvantage in relation to higher education.

Contextual offers can help mitigate this disadvantage. A university applicant who is having to work part time alongside their A levels, who has caring responsibilities and no quiet place to study really isn't on a level playing field with an applicant who can focus solely on their studies. I've worked with these kids- I know what they're up against!

And blind applications won't work if we can't get first generation students or students from low socioeconomic groups to apply to elite universities in the first place! That's a huge hurdle.

@keepyourkidsafe Privately educated students are better trained rather than better students. They are much more taught to the test and even in interviews can come across as much better polished than state students. However, those same students dont always do the best when it comes to their degree as tutoring is harder and you actually have to be smart.

@TheJerkStore is absolutely correct about social mobility but the issue is often about certain students coming across much better on paper or even in person than they usually are while other students come across as much worse.

Now, in the long run, it does not really matter as it's often parental networks and wealth that is the biggest predictor of future earnings than even getting the right degree but if we are talking about student chances of succeded at university then contextual offers are the way forward.

@TheJerkStore

keepyourkidsafe This was the topic of my PhD ( and masters before that). I teach, research and write about social mobility and fair access to higher education. I've been involved in widening participation my entire career. Believe me - I've looked at all perspectives and have a very good understanding of inequality and disadvantage in relation to higher education.

Contextual offers can help mitigate this disadvantage. A university applicant who is having to work part time alongside their A levels, who has caring responsibilities and no quiet place to study really isn't on a level playing field with an applicant who can focus solely on their studies. I've worked with these kids- I know what they're up against!

And blind applications won't work if we can't get first generation students or students from low socioeconomic groups to apply to elite universities in the first place! That's a huge hurdle.

You may very well have studied it but I lived it! Hard knock life with the scars to show for it. I failed my A-levels and needed to re-sit them twice because I was working throughout my educational life from a very early age.

The social levelling experiment in order to deliver social mobility is not the way, it's an experiment that will not end well.....striving for meritocracy is the only way forward.

Growing up, I resented rich independent schooling and the kids that went there but when you have your own kids, some folks work damn hard to afford them the opportunities you never had....you make sacrifices that others won't who would rather focus their resources on themselves

Yes, we need to level the playing field in a way fair for ALL.
But we also need to keep striving for excellence and also acknowledge what this is rather than incorrectly labelling this as privilege.

I would much rather all schools aim to be at the same/better standard as Eton type schools.
But I think most on this thread would do away with these institutions and instead lower the bar so that all schools are at the standard of the average state school - we need to avoid this type of mediocrity before it's too late

Also the “connections” advantage is over stated. Top employers Goldman Sachs etc falling over themselves to be diverse and fair at recruiting. The fact you went to a particular school or your father lunches with someone on the board won’t cut it.

Also in our city the top private school is majority Russian / Chinese who tend to stay friends within their own groups so not sure that helps the friends for life thing.

Still I guess it’s not a problem as I am repeatedly earnestly told by private school parents that they use those schools for the child’s experience only. So if you took away better results and social connections I guess they would still use them....?!

Trinity College University in Dublin attracts alot of the top English private schools. Boris Johnsons daughter is currently in Trinity. It would be Ireland's equivalent of Oxbridge.