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Are top private schools getting fewer oxbridge offers?

999 replies

Ijustwanttoask · 15/02/2021 17:42

Just read in the papers about the drop in Oxbridge offers to Eton in the last few years. Is there a same trend for other big name public schools and top London day schools too?

In the past years, these schools generally happily announce the numbers of Oxbridge offers they get around this time of the year but I haven't seen much for 2021.

* Title edited by MNHQ by request* **

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SouthLondonMommy · 18/03/2021 06:02

@mids2019

I don't really mind how they do it as long as they get it done fairly. To date they've been accomplishing it through outreach which is working well. State school student's share has increased from 55% to 62% since 2015 at Oxford so I imagine by 2026 we might be there with continued efforts.

Cambridge has been more aggressive and I think for 2020 has admitted 70% state school students already.

Only Cambridge is offering the foundation course not Oxford.

I agree that the foundation courses are less straight forward of an argument than the overall rebalancing.

However, I personally support Cambridge's efforts on this and find it fair. When thinking about the fairness of things like this, I ask would I want my kids to switch places with those that can access the opportunity so they could get it? If not, then it's hardly an unfair backdoor but rather an attempt at levelling the playing field.

The 50 places on offer via the foundation course are for children who are in care, had their education disrupted severely and experienced other extreme forms of disadvantage but who are immensely talented.

www.cam.ac.uk/news/cambridge-foundation-year-offers-new-route-to-undergraduate-study-for-educationally-and-socially

SomethingWitchy · 18/03/2021 07:03

I've not RTFT but I just wanted to point out that several famous private schools have aggressively academic enyrance requirements in the first place and accept pupils on a "means-blind" basis backed up by very generous bursaries.

Their model after all is to get the most able students in the country through their doors in the first place to shore up their reputation of great results. Scholarship exams are like the 11+ on steroids.

So I'd say it's a bit simplistic to suggest that the thing elite private school pupils have in common is money and being 'spoonfed' and that they are then given a lot of places at top universities purely because of an old-boy privilege.

What many will have in common is an impressive natural aptitude, and parents savvy enough to get them into a school where they will receive a great education, whether they could afford to pay for it in full or not.

That's not to say that students with natural aptitude whose parents didn't or couldn't go down that route shouldn't be considered and given a level playing field as far as possible, but it's not really a case of Bright But Disadvantaged Everyman vs Tim Nice But Dim!

I have no particular skin on this game, incidentally - my university days are long over and I did not go to a famous school!

mids2019 · 18/03/2021 07:09

Firstly I think we should applaud the immense efforts that those under financial an s emotional hardship make to achieve academic grades.

I think all of us as humans have sympathy for those under plight as described in the foundation course description and many of us would want to see action about the social conditions that bring about these.

However the foundation course description appears to imply that you are eligible for acceptance with 3B s and with passing a new certificate whose academic merit is unverifiable (though I am sure it is very good?) brings up disadvantaged pupils to a standard to embark on an Cambridge degree.

I do not know how easy or difficult it will be to pass such a certificate. How is the certificate to be assessed, who is going to supply the teaching (university staff ?) or the degree to which the course attendees are to be part of the full university body. If the certificate is essentially a rubber stamp of attendance does this have implications for the academic rigour off a Cambridge degree?

I wouof question SouthLondonMommy's assertion of immense talent when 3 Vs is the entrance requirement . Again it is granted the children in question have suffered and have displayed huge resilience but the acquisition of 3B s at A level in some eyes would not be commensurate with that level of talent.

I can see how the scheme fits into general rebalancing but I would say it may be hard to argue that this is not form of positive discrimination.

I would say a scheme like this may be appropriate for other Russell group universities where competition isn't quite as fierce or contentious and they may provide academic environments that hairbrush candidates better. You could also argue that the support in these instance should be directed at schools where the pupil could repeat a year with possibly tutoring to give an opportunity to get the A grades that are normally associated with Cambridge entrance.

I think rebalancing and increasing diversity is relatively easy to support openly be perhaps that there are those that feel duty bound to do so. However there are middle class parents whose children have devoted huge effort (perhaps in private schools) that have to console their child on Cambridge offer day when the rejection letter some through and they know the hard work in one perspective has come to naught.those

From an Eton parent 's perspective they would say that they have paid the state possibly a considerable amount of taxation to support the disadvantaged, allowed the state not to pay schools fees, allowed Eton to use fees to support bursaries for disadvantaged boys so why should they ecstatic when there are schemes in place to potentially displace their child's Cambridge place? Private school parents are not ogres and many may actually left leaning sympathies and (whisper it) be compassionate socially aware human beings. However you can see the sense of grievance such schemes cause.

When you have just a few coveted places at the world leading universities whose prime responsibility is to accept the very talented is it sensible to provide such schemes. Are there not better ways of doing this that don't add fuel to the fire of positive bias?

There is already thought that universities in general are left leaning in their political culture which may be at odds to country as a whole (very centre right) and ambitions such as foundation schemes may add to those suspisions.

With the fact that you have international Cambridge entrants from socio economic backgrounds (including schooling) that isn't scrutinised (and why as they pay such large fees) combined with a local UK diversity agenda you can see why there may be an element of cynicism from such quarters.

Part of the reason for the flight of elite public school students to the US?

Foxhasbigsocks · 18/03/2021 07:17

@mids2019 3 Bs at some schools is an enormous achievement and will be the highest grades by far at that school . Sadly many of those children are learning in chaotic classrooms, with constant interruptions, some of the schools may be rated inadequate and the syllabus may not even be being covered properly, they often have nowhere to study at home and certainly nowhere quiet. I’m totally happy for that to be recognised even if that means my privately educated dds don’t get a place

mids2019 · 18/03/2021 07:18

Support not hairbrush (autocorrect in play). Hairbrushing is obviously not provided by any university and I doubt some do it better than others.

Namenic · 18/03/2021 07:19

I always think entrance is quite a lot of luck. Basically I think that many more people are able to enter Cambridge and get a 2.1 or above than actually get in. Private school pupils have a choice as to whether they go to state if they feel the balance is against it - though I don’t know how oxbridge view people who have gone to both - eg gcses state and a levels private or vice versa.

Foxhasbigsocks · 18/03/2021 07:44

@SomethingWitchy have you got evidence you can post to show which of the private schools are admitting 100% needs blind and the percentage of their intake that don’t come from prep schools? I would be really interested to see that.

SouthLondonMommy · 18/03/2021 07:48

@mids2019

First, let's not overstate the impact of the foundation course. It's 50 out of 7,000 Oxbridge places. It is a drop in the ocean.

The majority of the rebalancing is based solely on attainment. Based purely on share of top grades (AAA-AAA*), state school students are still significantly underrepresented as a proportion of the student body.

Regarding the foundation, I imagine Cambridge knows what they are doing. I find it pretty easy to imagine that a student attaining BBB in a school with subpar teaching while dealing with the challenges of being in care is equivalent ability to someone receiving a world class education getting AAAs. If you don't pass the course, you can't join the university so I imagine it must be rigorous enough.

Again, its a drop in the ocean and probably a test. They'll see how the students get on once in and if they are very successful then I imagine they will look to expand it.

mids2019 · 18/03/2021 07:56

@Foxhasbigsocks

I think we are all safe that there are problems with state educational provision in this country and there will be constant demand for additional resources. Once again I am in no doubt academic achievements from these schools is absolutely commendable.

However it was put forward earlier that educational disadvantage is sown when children are not read to as infants. We would never advocate a solution where books were taken away from patients who read to level the playing field.

Could your argument about access be akin to this in some ways. Some may say this is effect is 'levelling down ' to achieve social goals.

Our beloved PM wishes all schools to be as good as his (Eton) so is the government agenda to support schools to provide similar levels of education not to mitigate poor educational experience by allowing children into elite universities with relatively poor grades.

Foxhasbigsocks · 18/03/2021 07:58

I think foundational years will show that the vast majority of children with 3Bs from the deprived schools/areas in question will be just as able as many of the students already admitted under standard admissions

SouthLondonMommy · 18/03/2021 08:06

I should add, its not officially published data in their accounts yet but it looks like Oxford's share of state pupils has jumped significantly again. It was 62% in 2019 and is now 69% in 2020. I suspect, in another few years we'll be at circa 75% which is parity based on attainment at A-level. Given in 2015 it was 55%, the progress has been swift.

Also, they have announced they'll be launching their own foundation course though its not up and running yet. Similar to Cambridge its only 50 places so a drop in the ocean.

www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-01-15-oxford-student-offers-show-significant-state-school-increase

www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/increasing-access/foundation-oxford

SouthLondonMommy · 18/03/2021 08:10

@Foxhasbigsocks

I think foundational years will show that the vast majority of children with 3Bs from the deprived schools/areas in question will be just as able as many of the students already admitted under standard admissions
I agree. With the evidence in hand following these small programmes, they'll be able to expand access further to these groups.

@mids2019 no it's not equivalent to taking away books at all.

It's more akin to offering free preschool places to disadvantaged pupils. The idea is the help these very able pupils step up and reach their potential. Oxbridge feel these children are just as bright as the AAA equivalents but circumstances beyond their control has disrupted their education. They are helping them fill in the gaps that will allow them to succeed.

Foxhasbigsocks · 18/03/2021 08:17

@mids2019 back to brushing I can confirm there was a LOT of very glossy hair at Oxbridge when I went Grin

mids2019 · 18/03/2021 10:13

@SouthLondonMommy

OK 50 is not a great deal in 3500, between 1 and 2%. However there are around 1% of children in care at the moment so you can argue this is proportionate. In addition when Cambridge places are in such great demand 50 places does gain a greater significance

The question of an A at a state school being of greater merit than a A at a private school keeps arising . It is a sweeping generalisation to make this comment as individual circumstances vary significantly.

Does an objective A level mean anything when you have to declare your school type to give it context? Is there a point in the A level grading system at all?

@Foxhasbigsocks

I think we are back to objective means of assessment here You state Cambridge 'feel' these BBB candidates have potential and this gives a lot of discretion to the 'power' of admissions officers to discern these qualities (that divine ability to see the potential where the A level system and teachers can't). Is it Oxbridges raison detre
to fill in the gaps? Discuss.

@Namenic

I think your right ... It is a bit of a lottery but you maybe will get other opinions from oxbridge grads, parents there of, and admission tutors of course that are obviously great at spotting talent.

mids2019 · 18/03/2021 10:43

My hair was alright as well (I hope)

mids2019 · 18/03/2021 11:18

@Foxhasbigsocks

Isn't there a difference... with pre school children you are embarked on a nationwide social campaign to address poor educational starts from family illteracy, poverty, developmental delay etc.

With Cambridge you are making selections for one the world's alleged leading academic institutions.

Foxhasbigsocks · 18/03/2021 13:03

@mids2019I didn’t mention preschool or use the word “feel”

The word I used was “show” - I think the degree class marks of the foundation year students will track and actually I predict will slightly exceed the standard admissions control group.

mids2019 · 18/03/2021 13:36

@Foxhasbigsocks

Apologies the point was to SouthLondonMommy

I think you have a lot of confidence in Cambridge admissions personnel to identify pupils with 3Bs that have that extra something to allow them to excel in their Cambridge careers.

You may well be right but given these students have had trauma in their lives and perhaps ongoing physical and health issues will there be ongoing support to ensure their health is preserved during the degree . Anecodately I heard some Cambridge degrees can be quite challenging and indeed sometines stressful.

I also would put forward that a lot of us could say that we have 'education interruption through external cirumstances' eg parental divorce, relationship breakup, illness during exam revision, poor mental health etc etc and these are the slings and arrows that impact on all strains of society, not necessarily the extremely disenfranchised. I would raise questions about you ensure the fairness of these proposals.

mids2019 · 18/03/2021 13:37

ensure their mental health

SouthLondonMommy · 18/03/2021 13:54

@mids2019 just catching up as I'm working.

I don't know how Oxbridge have come up with BBB. However, if the kids don't prove themselves in the foundation course they don't get into the university so its not exactly a huge risk. They'll see how it goes. By 'feel' I mean estimate based on some criteria.

I think if the UK wants to strive to be a meritocracy, its entirely appropriate.

I don't see any difference between the free preschool places, pupil premium funding and what Oxbridge is doing.

I would argue that being a leading university with the power and influence that entails make it the moral responsibility of Oxbridge to take this kind of action. Oxbridge want to develop world class talent wherever it may lie and is doing what it can to remove barriers and facilitate social mobility.

Education is the greatest engine for social mobility and that includes preschool, school and tertiary education.

Even private businesses are under pressure to abandon unpaid internships as only affluent students can afford to do them etc. Every aspect of society has a role to play in creating a more equitable society.

Elij00 · 18/03/2021 14:43

@Namenic

I always think entrance is quite a lot of luck. Basically I think that many more people are able to enter Cambridge and get a 2.1 or above than actually get in. Private school pupils have a choice as to whether they go to state if they feel the balance is against it - though I don’t know how oxbridge view people who have gone to both - eg gcses state and a levels private or vice versa.
The school the individual pupil attended upto GCSE Level is what these unis look at as if that was not the case they'll be an exodus of students from the Indie sector to the state sector(I know that's already the case at Colleges likes Hills Road)

It also stops them penalising students who attended mediocre state schools but won Scholarships to Independents.

DahliaMacNamara · 18/03/2021 14:45

Nobody is immune from bereavement, illness, family problems etc, and sometimes these occur at key exam times, as they have in my own family. It's disingenuous in the extreme to imply that these experiences are on a par with those of a child who is without the bedrock of family support @mids2019.

mids2019 · 18/03/2021 14:49

@SouthLondonMommy

I think the rub is in how hard the 'CertHE' is to pass. It would seem rather cruel to allow disenfranchised students with possibly mental scars as well ongoing health issues to be shown all Cambridge has to offer and be then sent away. I suspect the certificate will be passed by the majority on the scheme.

This still brings into question how 3B candidates ultimately can be supported educationally (and take into account the background vunerable children could mean vunerable adults) can be prepared for the rigours of a Cambridge degree and succeed.

Personally I think the scheme may have been appropriate at other universities. There is a natural dichotomy between an inclusive supportive nurturing educational environment and an elitist one. I think that is hard circle to square for Cambridge (easier for other unis)

You made every eloquent statement on meritocracy but I suppose the question is can you achieve these aims without positive bias? I think that is what some private schools suspect is happening.

nolanscrack · 18/03/2021 15:05

I think we can assume very few-if any- of the foundation students will fail the certificate,that would reflect badly on the University.

Elij00 · 18/03/2021 15:20

[quote Foxhasbigsocks]@SomethingWitchy have you got evidence you can post to show which of the private schools are admitting 100% needs blind and the percentage of their intake that don’t come from prep schools? I would be really interested to see that.[/quote]
Independent Schools do give 100% bursaries to poor students from state schools at 11+/13+ but you need to be incredibly clever to get one. They also do the same at 16+ and yet again you either have to be incredibly clever or clever enough+incredibly gifted at playing some sort of sporting activity or musical instrument.

Basically both sides benefits. I must say though It's a great initiative from the Indies no matter how you feel about the creaming of the brightest and the most able students.