Are top private schools getting fewer oxbridge offers?

[Ijustwanttoask]

Just read in the papers about the drop in Oxbridge offers to Eton in the last few years. Is there a same trend for other big name public schools and top London day schools too?

In the past years, these schools generally happily announce the numbers of Oxbridge offers they get around this time of the year but I haven't seen much for 2021.

* Title edited by MNHQ by request* **

@mids2019

OK so if we are looking at a target of 25% for private school children at Oxbridge to reflect the proportion of high A level grades awarded lwill this lead to be a more meritocratic society? I think there are other factors at play as well as access to Oxford and Cambridge. I think as a country we still view public schooling with a degree of respect (look at the backgrounds of Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak) and I think this is tied in with an inherent acceptance of elitism which is rather specific to the UK. 75% of country support a monarchy and this is the personification of restricted social mobility (titles given by birth alone) and I think many want to keep the infrastructure and tradition that support this institution . There is an osmosis of this feeling toward other establishment institutions e.g. Eton where there are links to the ruling class and supporting history.

To the point that Oxbridge will advocate the academically elite amongst the culturally elite I am sure this is true as there will always be an overlap between the two. However not all the culturally elite (looking forward) will attend Oxford and Cambridge and hence this idea of displaced prestige of institutions. Kate Middleton did not go to Oxford but one could argue she is part of a cultural elite (as example)

I think the US historically ha s allowed the development of elite institutions as they did not have two universities restricting the profile other ones. The US has a common language and is the world's wealthiest economy so I am sure it has attractive universities. I think the international reputation of its elite universities definitely act as a magnet for private school children.

For elite public schools I think there is an acknowledgment that the 'Oxbridge hit rate will reduce in future and action is being taken to ensure that there is accessed to equally prestigous alternatives in the US (and from world uni rankings these are where they are) . I read a Telegraph article suggesting that this was the case and maybe an understandable one.

AS A seems to be a high benchmark academically but with grade inflation there are actually a relatively high number of pupils achieving these grades and Oxbridge alternatives often give offers higher than this. A level grades are not being used a s the only filter for Oxbridge entrance and interview/other exams need to be used in parallel (the fairness or lack of for this is another discussion).

Tbh I don't think we'll ever get parity and imo that's ok as long they continue to give state educated pupils a chance to compete. We are also starting to see the trickle down effects of this scheme as state schools who have either never sent or sent one or two pupils many moons ago are now sending one or two per year now.

I'd also add that although the main focus is Oxbridge, the knock on effect is felt across the board. As more deserving state school students are taking up places at Oxbridge, their counterparts who would have in years gone by only applied to "Lower tier" Russell group unis like Queen Mary,Liverpool, Cardiff, Sheffield et al are now applying to LSE,UCL,Imperial et al.

I agree a lot of the cultural elites will not attend Oxbridge but isn't that a good that a good thing as long as the most Academic of them attend Oxbridge? Also I'm sure if Kate actually got the grades required as some of Her Marlborough cohorts did, she won't have gone to St Andrews.

I find it funny that as soon as State school students start getting their fair share of Pupils into Top unis, murmurs amongst the Press about grade inflation crops up. Studies have shown that amongst pupils with 3As at Unis, State educated students perform just as well as their independent school counterparts whilst amongst those with 3Bs, State educated pupils perform ever so slightly better so grade inflation is not the issue here.

@Elij00

I think that's a balanced view.

A true meritocracy would involve an even distribution of resource i.e. wealth to create a level playing field and we are never going to elect a government do that degree of socialist leaning.

Yes I am sure Kate would have gone to Oxford if she got the grades but I am sure Wills would not have ended up dating a state school student with parents of low income (could say that's a pity). I often think the royal family could make a statement by sending more of their children to state schools but that isn't going to happen any time soon.

I think overall there has been grade inflation since at least the 90s when I went to university (hence the creation of A star grades and increasing uni tariffs) but maybe the press do highlight this when commenting on the destination of state school leavers.

It's good that more people from a range of schools are applying for Oxbridge but the impression of anti private school bias needs to be avoided. I am sure many leading independent schools are worried by the Oxbridge entrants trend in private and I can't help but feel there is going to be some kind of pushback.

This may come from private schools highlighting examples of pupils with immaculate A levels and GCSEs not getting places and demanding justification for rejections. I guess there will be some grievance from private schools when some of their able entrants are rejected when foundation years are being offered to state school entrants.

I think we still have a legacy of state school applicants considering institutional fit when considering a university. The architecture and traditions of the older Oxbridge colleges could possibly act as a deterrent when a student from a relatively poor background is making their uni decision. I put forward the question about whether the parallels between public school culture and Oxbridge culture is a partial reason for the disproportionate number of private school entrants.

It will be interesting to see the outcome in a few years......

[quote mids2019]@Elij00

I think that's a balanced view.

A true meritocracy would involve an even distribution of resource i.e. wealth to create a level playing field and we are never going to elect a government do that degree of socialist leaning.

Yes I am sure Kate would have gone to Oxford if she got the grades but I am sure Wills would not have ended up dating a state school student with parents of low income (could say that's a pity). I often think the royal family could make a statement by sending more of their children to state schools but that isn't going to happen any time soon.

I think overall there has been grade inflation since at least the 90s when I went to university (hence the creation of A star grades and increasing uni tariffs) but maybe the press do highlight this when commenting on the destination of state school leavers.

It's good that more people from a range of schools are applying for Oxbridge but the impression of anti private school bias needs to be avoided. I am sure many leading independent schools are worried by the Oxbridge entrants trend in private and I can't help but feel there is going to be some kind of pushback.

This may come from private schools highlighting examples of pupils with immaculate A levels and GCSEs not getting places and demanding justification for rejections. I guess there will be some grievance from private schools when some of their able entrants are rejected when foundation years are being offered to state school entrants.

I think we still have a legacy of state school applicants considering institutional fit when considering a university. The architecture and traditions of the older Oxbridge colleges could possibly act as a deterrent when a student from a relatively poor background is making their uni decision. I put forward the question about whether the parallels between public school culture and Oxbridge culture is a partial reason for the disproportionate number of private school entrants.

It will be interesting to see the outcome in a few years......[/quote]
I agree true meritocracy would never be achieved. I truly believe no society in the world will ever be able to achieve it but hey what do I know. I also 100% agree with you when you say we will never elect a government that leans that way as Brits no matter how we say are traditional.

Absolutely studies have shown that we usually date and marry within our social class. Loooool Look we had to twist the arms of MPs to get them to send their wards to state schools in wealthy neighborhoods, no way are the Royals going state. State primary was the best we could have hoped for.

A few pages back I said once the figure reaches 25%, we will start to see some serious push back and I stand by that. I actually don't we'll get there. We might get 27% one year then 32% the following year.

The remnants of the Legacy of State educated pupils not seeing Oxbridge as instutional fit will remain for decades to come and how can it not be when it's been that way for centuries. Thanks to the widening access scheme however, things are getting better. Whilst you make a good point about there being parallels between the culture of public schools and their disproportionate amount of Oxbridge applicants, I'd argue that's just a minute reason why.

Access and "Know How" is the main reason. There was an article I read a month or two ago about a school that had not produced an Oxbridge graduate for decades but as soon as they got an Oxbridge application and advise specialist, they get 2 students into Oxbridge and 1 into Stanford. Coincidence, I think not. Whilst State school students are busy applying to the Most competitive Oxbridge colleges and to the most competitive courses, private school students know exactly which colleges and courses to apply to.

@elij00

I think it may be positive that schools who have not previously had oxbridge successes are now doing so.

Access to university did get me thinking of that complex issue of class in the UK.

Would working class children entering oxbridge instantly feel they were middle class? Some may argue that an Ixford degree to some extent defines class but some may feel more at home with their working class routes. Similarly do middle class students think their status is dimished in not getting into Oxbridge?

I have my own thoughts about social mixing in halls of residence/colleges and whether strong friendship groups arise when someone from Winchester ends up being opposite to someone with a different socio economic background I dont think it works in some cases.

When it comes to meeting long term partners university is often where these attachments happen and it is interesting to note your comment about marrying into the same class and how this bears on uni romances.

I think I must be living in a different world from many of the posters on this site. When I got to university (and it was a university with a very high number of private school kids) I was never made to feel inferior because of where I came from. I had friends from all walks of life and dated boys who had been to private schools. Looking back there were small pockets of “hooray Henry’s” as we liked to call them but they were very much the minority. There were also small pocket of state school kids that were very insular and didn’t like to mix. My experience in the workplace has been similar...regardless of our background we are all drawn together with the common goal of wanting to succeed in life. The vast majority of “successful” people these days are self made - generational wealth is on the decline. Most kids, privately educated or otherwise, still need to make their own way in the world as there is no generational wealth to fall back on.

I find it very ironic that the people that shout the loudest about social injustice tend to be those with generational wealth - so much money they know their kids and grandchildren will be set up for life. These people don’t need their kids to go to Oxbridge or a RG university. And it conveniently suits them to sow the seeds of division between the rest of us because it makes sure that no one will ever gain enough momentum to challenge their place at the top of the pyramid.

[quote mids2019]@elij00

I think it may be positive that schools who have not previously had oxbridge successes are now doing so.

Access to university did get me thinking of that complex issue of class in the UK.

Would working class children entering oxbridge instantly feel they were middle class? Some may argue that an Ixford degree to some extent defines class but some may feel more at home with their working class routes. Similarly do middle class students think their status is dimished in not getting into Oxbridge?

I have my own thoughts about social mixing in halls of residence/colleges and whether strong friendship groups arise when someone from Winchester ends up being opposite to someone with a different socio economic background I dont think it works in some cases.

When it comes to meeting long term partners university is often where these attachments happen and it is interesting to note your comment about marrying into the same class and how this bears on uni romances.[/quote]
I do think that social mixing at university is important & to be encouraged.

Oxbridge is on one level quite good for this because such a high proportion of students live in, paying the same price for the same board & lodgings. Obviously things like drinking societies, rowing clubs, & so on, chip away at that, but it's quite an imporant start.

I did my postgrad degree at Warwick & I must say they [imo] missed a trick by having loads of different campus accommodations each with slighty different price points, so you ended up getting very strict social segregation. I expect they still have it today. At the time I could walk into one of the student bars in freshers week & see all the new groups of newly-made friends 'bonding', and be able to predict with near 100% accuracy which of the residences the group came from from giveaways such as their accents, dress, mannerisms, etc.

[quote mids2019]@elij00

I think it may be positive that schools who have not previously had oxbridge successes are now doing so.

Access to university did get me thinking of that complex issue of class in the UK.

Would working class children entering oxbridge instantly feel they were middle class? Some may argue that an Ixford degree to some extent defines class but some may feel more at home with their working class routes. Similarly do middle class students think their status is dimished in not getting into Oxbridge?

I have my own thoughts about social mixing in halls of residence/colleges and whether strong friendship groups arise when someone from Winchester ends up being opposite to someone with a different socio economic background I dont think it works in some cases.

When it comes to meeting long term partners university is often where these attachments happen and it is interesting to note your comment about marrying into the same class and how this bears on uni romances.[/quote]
There are indeed doing a great job and I applaud them.

In years gone by, some working class students (heck even Middle classes)might have felt out of place in institutions like Oxbridge but with the advent of technology and various Social media sites, it's becoming less so. Along with various outreach programmes, they do a lot to demystify the thinking some might have about attending Oxbridge. I think you mean Upper class and Upper Middle classes but they've been attending institutions like Durham,Bristol,UCL, Edinburgh,Exeter,St Andrews et al since it's inception so I doubt it.

I also think Oxbridge are doing a great job in making sure students from schools that send huge numbers to it's institution are spread out amongst it's various colleges. Schools Oxbridge advisers are well aware of this hence they advise their students to apply to a wide variety of colleges. For example although a particular Oxbridge college might have a large cohort of privately educated students, it won't be majorly from just one School.

You might get the odd anecdotal my Parents were the poorest people in the world but I married Bill Gate's Son but most people date and marry(most especially) between the same class. Dating is often done across social classes but when it's time to settle down,,We revert back to what we know.

@Elij00

It's the same way Harvard,Yale and Princeton will remain America's most elite institutions no matter How well regarded the Likes of MIT and Stanford currently are.... I'm not just talking about academics, I am talking about the whole shebang. Culturally,Politically,Academics et al.

On any of those measures, Stanford's easily been a peer of HYP for the last 25 years. Bad examples.

The US is a much larger country. We have more elite universities than just two or three that are equally well regarded.

Oxford and Cambridge are much larger than the top US universities. Between them, they educate something like 7000 undergraduates a year. Between them, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford and MIT educate something like 7000 undergraduates a year - out of a population five times the size of the UK's.

@SouthLondonMommy

the academic credentials of legacy applicants are the same as the overall applicant pool at Harvard.

I'm not sure what your point is. The academic credentials of legacy students admitted to Harvard are most certainly not the same as those of the non-legacy students admitted.

@expa96 --yes they are. For 2019 its published information...

features.thecrimson.com/2015/freshman-survey/makeup-narrative/

However, there are definitely irregularities in the process as I mentioned with the z-list.

@expat96 my point is, Harvard, Yale and Princeton are not the only elite universities in the US. We have more elite universities that are very difficult to get into because we are a larger country.... There are 8 Ivy league universities (all very prestigious) as well as MIT, Stanford, etc etc etc

We have more elite universities that have very low admittance rates because it's a much bigger country. I'm not really sure what you are trying to dispute exactly.

[quote SouthLondonMommy]@expa96 --yes they are. For 2019 its published information...

features.thecrimson.com/2015/freshman-survey/makeup-narrative/

However, there are definitely irregularities in the process as I mentioned with the z-list.[/quote]
What statistic are you referring to in that link? The average SAT scores?

This analysis of the data which the admissions lawsuit unearthed shows that legacy admits had lower scores on Harvard's Academic Rating than the overall admits for Whites, African Americans and Asian Americans. I have to admit that I'm still scratching my head at the result for Hispanic Americans. Table 2, with more detail in Table D2.

public.econ.duke.edu/~psarcidi/legacyathlete.pdf

[quote SouthLondonMommy]@expat96 my point is, Harvard, Yale and Princeton are not the only elite universities in the US. We have more elite universities that are very difficult to get into because we are a larger country.... There are 8 Ivy league universities (all very prestigious) as well as MIT, Stanford, etc etc etc

We have more elite universities that have very low admittance rates because it's a much bigger country. I'm not really sure what you are trying to dispute exactly.[/quote]
I was and still am disputing your apparent assertion that Harvard's legacy admits have the same academic credentials as its non-legacy admits.

[quote expat96]@Elij00

It's the same way Harvard,Yale and Princeton will remain America's most elite institutions no matter How well regarded the Likes of MIT and Stanford currently are.... I'm not just talking about academics, I am talking about the whole shebang. Culturally,Politically,Academics et al.

On any of those measures, Stanford's easily been a peer of HYP for the last 25 years. Bad examples.

The US is a much larger country. We have more elite universities than just two or three that are equally well regarded.

Oxford and Cambridge are much larger than the top US universities. Between them, they educate something like 7000 undergraduates a year. Between them, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford and MIT educate something like 7000 undergraduates a year - out of a population five times the size of the UK's.

@SouthLondonMommy

the academic credentials of legacy applicants are the same as the overall applicant pool at Harvard.

I'm not sure what your point is. The academic credentials of legacy students admitted to Harvard are most certainly not the same as those of the non-legacy students admitted.[/quote]
Eventhough I was looking at it from a historically point of view, I admitted a page or 2 back MIT and Stanford were the wrong examples to use. I should have chosen another ivy league uni that is consistently ranked below the Top 10-15 US colleges. They have a vast amount of Top quality colleges available to them Stateside compared to anywhere else in the world.

[quote SouthLondonMommy]@expat96 my point is, Harvard, Yale and Princeton are not the only elite universities in the US. We have more elite universities that are very difficult to get into because we are a larger country.... There are 8 Ivy league universities (all very prestigious) as well as MIT, Stanford, etc etc etc

We have more elite universities that have very low admittance rates because it's a much bigger country. I'm not really sure what you are trying to dispute exactly.[/quote]
I definitely agree with this. Apart from the odd anecdotal evidence, no one turns down Oxbridge in the UK whilst people turn down HYP for other Top 10-15 colleges. Heck some even forgo the TOP 10 colleges and head to either Westpoint or Annapolis.

They have a vast amount of Top quality colleges available to them Stateside compared to anywhere else in the world.

We do, but we've also got five times as many domestic students chasing top places as you do here in the UK. You actually have to go down to the top 25 or 30 colleges to cover the same percentage of population in the US as Oxbridge cover in the UK.

@Elij00

Apart from the odd anecdotal evidence, no one turns down Oxbridge in the UK whilst people turn down HYP for other Top 10-15 colleges.

Actually, only rarely. This paper found that HYPS, MIT and Caltech form a top tier which doesn't lose many admitted applicants to schools outside the group. There was clear daylight between these six and the next cluster, which includes the rest of the Ivies, etc.

doi.org/10.1093/qje/qjs043

@expat96

Those aren't Ivy league universities. Ivy league doesn't mean prestigious. The Ivy league is an actual official league of the oldest universities in the US. It only includes: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, U Penn, Dartmouth, Brown and Cornell.

There are many other prestigious universities that are as hard to get into as those 8 like MIT, Stanford etc but they are not Ivy league universities. People over here seem to misunderstand what the term actually means.

Anyway, this is way off topic and largely irrelevant.

sorry that was for @Elij00 not @expat96

@shinyhappypeople762

I am glad that your university was positive and I think in theory university should allow mixing of a diverse range of groups and the ability to engage with people of different backgrounds is definitely a good life/work skill.

However it is human nature for people of similar backgrounds to coalesce ... 'birds of a feather' comes to mind and this can unfortunately cause some tension. There are instances of class based discrimination at universties though maybe it doesnt quite get a lot of attention. It may be overt or manifest itself subtly by ostracism (not being invited to the pub etc) or humour based around mocking the working class (chav jokes). I dont think these experiences should be entirely discounted.

@rattusrattus20

I would think oxbridge is very supportive of disadvantaged students with the award of generous bursaries and guaranteed accommodation.

With the increasing diversity of oxbridge I think in future oxbridge will be still the host of an intellectual elite but may lose its 'posh' reputation.

Interesting that accommodation can be a proxy for prosperity now...

@Elij00

Outreach is certainly having its successes and I suppose the change of make up of oxbridge student bodies will be permanent

However I still think there is a political dimension to this and it is not a zero sum game as one could argue for every extra state entrant there is one less private entrant. Some will ascribe this to greater number of state applicants but there will also be those that are convinced positive discrimination is being applied.

I saw a Daily Mail piece (never a paper to want to provoke a reaction) juxtaposing Bramcote Manor's oxbridge successes with a piece showing Eton's reduction in successful applications.

With typically goading style it attributed Bramcote's success to an 'aggressive diversity campaign' (DM speak for outreach).

On the other hand there were quotes from Eton's deputy head expressing that some very strong applicants had been disappointed by their rejections but there other alternative 'leading universities' .

I noted there was no cause linked to the disappointment but presumably the universties were the target of this remark and the subtext was in Eton's opinion these were pupils that really should have been successful.

Read the Telegraph and Daily Mail in future and we will find increasing diversity is due to increasingly 'woke' university staff and left wing bias generally in academia.

University romances.. always a minefield at that age but I did notice that there were male wealthy students with really quite misogynist views of poorer females and vice versa with some wealthier women dating poorer males with no real desire for a long term relationship (bit Pulp and common people)

@expat96 what are you using to dispute the legacy data I've linked to? It's a fact. It's published data.

There are thousands of candidates with ear percent SAT scores. Being a legacy helps you stand out from that crowd but you don't get in with substandard academic achievements.

The real irregularities are around the z-list as I mentioned. Those kids are not admitted in the normal way. They are admitted off the waitlist and told they have to defer a year. to gain admission By doing this they aren't included in the standard reported admission statistics and so don't impact the university's league table standing which they care deeply about. However, this isn't for ordinary legacy candidates. This is a big (and I mean big) donor privilege. About 50 kids are admitted this way a year out of over 1,600 students though so roughly 3%.

• near perfect not ear percent (auto correct and rushing)

[quote SouthLondonMommy]@expat96

Those aren't Ivy league universities. Ivy league doesn't mean prestigious. The Ivy league is an actual official league of the oldest universities in the US. It only includes: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, U Penn, Dartmouth, Brown and Cornell.

There are many other prestigious universities that are as hard to get into as those 8 like MIT, Stanford etc but they are not Ivy league universities. People over here seem to misunderstand what the term actually means.

Anyway, this is way off topic and largely irrelevant.[/quote]
I know about the Athletic Ivy League and all. I might not be as American as you and Expat are, but I know a lot about the States as quite a number of my relatives on my Mum's side are American. I was using the Military Academies as a case in point.

As you said, we are diverting from the main discussion on this thread so yh it's best I let it go.

[quote SouthLondonMommy]@expat96 what are you using to dispute the legacy data I've linked to? It's a fact. It's published data.

There are thousands of candidates with ear percent SAT scores. Being a legacy helps you stand out from that crowd but you don't get in with substandard academic achievements.

The real irregularities are around the z-list as I mentioned. Those kids are not admitted in the normal way. They are admitted off the waitlist and told they have to defer a year. to gain admission By doing this they aren't included in the standard reported admission statistics and so don't impact the university's league table standing which they care deeply about. However, this isn't for ordinary legacy candidates. This is a big (and I mean big) donor privilege. About 50 kids are admitted this way a year out of over 1,600 students though so roughly 3%.[/quote]
Which "fact" are you referring to? The average SAT scores? Did it occur to you that legacies are much wealthier and whiter, on average than non-legacies, both attributes which correlate quite strongly with SAT scores? That these differences in the characteristics of legacies and non-legacies might invalidate comparisons of the means?

Did you look at the paper I linked to? The tables I referred to clearly show that on Harvard's own Academic Rating, legacy admits had lower scores than the overall pool.

[quote expat96]@Elij00

Apart from the odd anecdotal evidence, no one turns down Oxbridge in the UK whilst people turn down HYP for other Top 10-15 colleges.

Actually, only rarely. This paper found that HYPS, MIT and Caltech form a top tier which doesn't lose many admitted applicants to schools outside the group. There was clear daylight between these six and the next cluster, which includes the rest of the Ivies, etc.

doi.org/10.1093/qje/qjs043[/quote]
Yh it's rare but it still happens. In the UK because of the perceived advantages Oxbridge confers, it does not happen. That article was a good read, really enjoyed it. Some of the things I knew and others I had no iota.

@Elij00 it does happen that some students decline those schools, but they probably lose fewer than 10% of their admits to schools outside the group. Common reasons why include:

• Parents went to Dartmouth
• Step-parent makes too much money for student to get financial aid but won't pay for private college
• Student wants to go to school in NYC
• Significant other is going to Chicago

That said, I'm sure I've read that some state school students have declined Oxbridge because they thought they wouldn't fit in.