Are top private schools getting fewer oxbridge offers?

[Ijustwanttoask]

Just read in the papers about the drop in Oxbridge offers to Eton in the last few years. Is there a same trend for other big name public schools and top London day schools too?

In the past years, these schools generally happily announce the numbers of Oxbridge offers they get around this time of the year but I haven't seen much for 2021.

* Title edited by MNHQ by request* **

@foxhasbigsocks this sort of information is starting to be collected...

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/768371/Measuring_Socio-economic_Background_in_your_Workforce__recommended_measures_for_use_by_employers.pdf

...but it is done in the form of anonymous surveys. As you can imagine this is not the type of information we could ask new graduates to put in their HR files and it’s not the sort of information that we could use in making individual hiring or promotion decisions (not should it be!). The results of this type of information is used to inform outreach programmes or other interventions that might increase access and identify talent from other sources.

@Shinyhappypeople762 it must depend on the company - in corporates I have worked at people are asked to state whether they went to state or private school along with other very personal info eg if you identify as LGBT and this is used to track whether the organisation inclusive

@foxhasbigsocks I’ve never worked anywhere where this information has been mandated - it’s always been optional and never been used as part of an individuals
promotion process. Company stats might state percentages of the workforce but names aren’t attached. Progress can still be tracked by cohort without having to go down to individual names.

I remember someone from Shell telling me they recruited only from Oxbridge, Imperial and Edinburgh - elitist or what, that was prob 15 years ago but I remember being annoyed on my DCs behalf.

@CrunchyBiscs

I remember someone from Shell telling me they recruited only from Oxbridge, Imperial and Edinburgh - elitist or what, that was prob 15 years ago but I remember being annoyed on my DCs behalf.

Was that in relation to technical jobs? It's been a bit of a thing in the oil industry that the big companies like geologists from Oxford, Aberdeen, Imperial and a couple of others (can't recall which sorry) bc their geology in the area of oil and gas is so strong. This info came from DH who is in that precise business and went to one of said institutions. Interestingly not Cambridge!

A friend worked for a top law firm in London (about 10 or more years ago) and apparently they only recruited junior-level trainee/paralegal candidates from Oxford (not even Cambridge ).

@scentedgeranium - the chap was an engineer not a geologist.

You would have absolutely no way of determining whether the A*/A grades A Level student from a private school had had all grades upgraded due to additional tutoring though, would you?

FWIW, amongst DS's diverse friendship group from his super-selective, many of those on a medical career trajectory did have tutoring to help them get their top grades!

I also thought there was recently some information from examination boards that implied that young people's A Level results could have gone a grade either way (pre-pandemic). So it doesn't entirely predetermine that an A grade candidate is necessarily brighter than a B grade one?

@NewModelArmyMayhem18

You would have absolutely no way of determining whether the A*/A grades A Level student from a private school had had all grades upgraded due to additional tutoring though, would you?

FWIW, amongst DS's diverse friendship group from his super-selective, many of those on a medical career trajectory did have tutoring to help them get their top grades!

I also thought there was recently some information from examination boards that implied that young people's A Level results could have gone a grade either way (pre-pandemic). So it doesn't entirely predetermine that an A grade candidate is necessarily brighter than a B grade one?

I'm astonished by this. My DD did the sort of A levels medics do and literally walked her A stars at a comprehensive. That's not a brag. its just astonishment that students we assume are bright actually aren't!

Well, I'm not saying it's true of all, but certainly the case with some members of DS's school cohort. Although conversely, I believe Israel once had a policy that if your IQ was above a certain level, they wouldn't allow you to become a doctor. That tells you that maybe you don't need to be as bright as people might think to be a good doctor?

I am sure that some medical schools do offer lower entry requirements than triple A*/A? That would suggest that you don't necessarily need to be a straight As student to cope with the academic workload?

I would suggest that if you need tuition and are already at a smart school then you can't cope with the workload.

I would agree @scentedgeranium. I would have thought that once you get to university it might not be so easy to carry on being tutored!

I have had a quick scout around and it looks as if some medical schools give BBB contextual offers. I'm pretty sure that the year DS did his A Levels a local medical school had places in clearing with those grade requirements.

@NewModelArmyMayhem18

I would agree *@scentedgeranium*. I would have thought that once you get to university it might not be so easy to carry on being tutored!

I have had a quick scout around and it looks as if some medical schools give BBB contextual offers. I'm pretty sure that the year DS did his A Levels a local medical school had places in clearing with those grade requirements.

Mind you I know at least one medical family who have (how should I put this?) helped with their medical student's undergrad 'homework'! And they were also tutored. Talk about covering all bases!

It doesn't necessarily inspire confidence though, does it?!

I have an insider's perspective on this, and we have many more applicants with the required grades than we could admit. The difference now is that 1. colleges are under an OFFA target for percentage of state school admissions; and 2. academics, an increasing number of whom are from overseas and not interested in the class shibboleths of private education, are increasingly choosing state school pupils over "safe" but intellectually mediocre public school candidates. Nowadays there are a ton of Etonians washing around the Pool with fantastic grades, but not being taken out because they are wealthy white boys from privileged backgrounds and there are tons of applicants with exactly the same grades from state comps, who haven't had the advantages they have, but are still achieving at the same level.

And who could disagree with that, to be brutally honest?

@stackthecats when universities refer to students from the state or independent sectors, are they referring solely to the sixth form institution, the GCSE institution, or some combination of the two?

@user149799568
The access agreements and their conditions are all mandated and set by Offa -- you can look at any of them here:
www.offa.org.uk/access-agreements/

Successor to Offa is OfS (access agreements continue here):
www.officeforstudents.org.uk

@stackthecats reading that gave me a real moment of happiness. The more admissions of bright state school kids there are the more there will be as internal views of what an Oxbridge student looks like will hopefully shift. So then a virtuous circle hopefully.

@Foxhasbigsocks but what does a bright state school kid look like? Is it one that goes to the "Eton of state schools" or the an underperforming one with 30%+ FSM and parents struggling to put food on the table? I had this very conversation with an Oxbridge academic responsible for widening admission, he didn't have a clue and hadn't even considered it.

@Soma I think outreach to schools to try to attract those least privileged kids is vital. That’s why I’m so excited about these new foundation year programmes. Kids with potential can be brought up to a point where the playing field can be levelled for them.

That said at this point any widening of admissions is a win to be honest, and I say this in as a mum of two reasonably bright privately educated dc at a non high flying private who might want a shot at Oxbridge one day. If they lose out in favour of a state school kid at the Eton of state schools because private school places are only being allocated by virtue of proportion of all kids in private Ed in that school year that seems fair enough.

Move over, Eton: east London state school receives record number of Oxbridge offers

@Foxhasbigsocks the issue I have is that once at Oxbridge, the support for children from underperforming state schools is not there. The Oxbridge academic I mentioned, hadn't considered the pastoral support necessary to help these students until I mentioned it. He thought his job was done once he attracted a certain number of state school pupils. Also parents were up in arms on MN and another forum when foundation degrees were announced.
With the likes of "Eton of state schools," the kids can ring up their parent's friends or godparents etc and get advice on the right university courses, etc. and a leg up that the children from underperforming schools could only dream of.

Often children at underperforming schools get terrible advice when selecting their A levels, and for example might choose criminology, law and BTEC travel and tourism (nothing wrong with any of these subjects) for a career in law, usually wanting to do a law degree. A foundation degree is not going to help these students.

I think only on MN and 11plusforum is there an obsession with Oxbridge. For many subjects that enrich our every day lives, there are much better places to study.

This is a really interesting discussion

If the proportion of private school children continues to decline at oxbridge (which seems to be the aim) what will be the consequent effects on the higher education system as a whole?

I personally feel (though I am sure some may have other views) that we arent necessarily going to remove a class based society and introduce pure meritocracy overnight by having the large majority of oxbridge students from state schools

Private school children who would otherwise gone to oxbridge in yesteryear will go to other strong institutions and looking at leavers destinations for elite private schools the range is a particular subset of the Russell group with Durham and Bristol of particular mention.

This will lead to these institutions raising A level tariffs with increased demand and a general increase in average family wealth at these places.

Employers will start to cast their eye on these other universties where previously they would have been wedded to Oxbridge and you will see reputational gain of places like Durham and Bristol.

We could have a system in 5 years time where oxbridge is seen by some as 'academically elite' but Durham would be regarded as 'socially elite' with upwards of 40% private school intake and its reputation would reflect this

Would we be looking at paths of (insert elite school here) Bristol/Durham etc. for high status jobs e.g. in government, civil service, BBC, law and finance? In other words will elitism be displaced from oxbridge to elsewhere?
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I think we will have to look at the make up of elite job roles in future and see if oxbridge is a common factor in backgrounds or public schooling. . . will be interesting

I notice that a few of the presenters of heavyweight BBC news programs are now from universties other than oxbridge however a significant number are still from private schools (Sophie Raworth, Emma Barnett and Susanna Reid spring to mind (Sophie Raworth and Reid both from SPGS in London though non oxbridge).

Will there be pressure on public sector employers to reduce their oxbridge intake in the intetests of diversity yet inadvertantly continue the status quo by selecting Durham graduates from Winchester and Harrow?

I noted the guardian article above mentioned Bristol so may be that particular paper is now focussing the spotlight on other places for social inclusivity given it may be 'job done' at oxbridge. Certainly on the HE thread here a Durham offer seems to be particularly sought after currently.