Are top private schools getting fewer oxbridge offers?

[Ijustwanttoask]

Just read in the papers about the drop in Oxbridge offers to Eton in the last few years. Is there a same trend for other big name public schools and top London day schools too?

In the past years, these schools generally happily announce the numbers of Oxbridge offers they get around this time of the year but I haven't seen much for 2021.

* Title edited by MNHQ by request* **

Here is the UCL information for those interested:

www.ucl.ac.uk/ioe/news/2019/nov/rich-resources-private-schools-give-pupils-educational-advantage-ioe-research-shows

@TheJerkStore

keepyourkidsafe Contextual offers have officially been used since 2004 AND and are used at universities in other countries too, including top US institutions. They aren't harming us on an international level.

I have nothing against private education. It's just important that we recognize the advantages it offers.

I am sure you will admit that the economical & geo-political challenges (notwithstanding Brexit, China, Russia) are quite different now and the next 10-15yrs compared to 2004? Hence my point and worry for the future

We need to collectively wise up or lose out for the next 100yrs as other countries (with questionable regimes) are now poised the change the status quo over the last 100yrs and this will have dramatic changes for the UK and the west

@SouthLondonMommy

The impact is greatest in secondary school. UCL did a study and children with the same GCSEs and same social background get very different results at A-level in private versus state settings.

Anyway, that's why its unfair to essential let rich people by higher grades and then also use those higher grades to gain unmitigated extra access to elite universities. Its perverse.

I educate my children privately because I want the best education for them but I don't expect the fact that they have had this advantage not to be weighed up when assessing how they've performed.

Yes but where is the data you referred to regarding A grade students from state outperform A grade independent students?

Does it exist?

Yes, I told you its a study by the Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE). I can't link to it but google it.

@SouthLondonMommy - that's an interesting study - going back to the OPs original question it would also be interesting to see whether kids who could have gone either way i.e. private or state do significantly better in the private sector. I.e. the question of facilitating A'level subjects is I assume one that most educated parents can help their kids with, similarly - lots of A'level students in the state sector get tutors for A'levels etc......

But it is clearly the case that kids without effectively parental support and/or private education will not get as far as those with it

@SouthLondonMommy

I mentioned that grammar schools are over represented multiple times.

The grammar schools that send lots of children to Oxbridge are deeply unequal-- you need to live in their catchments which prices most people out and many people who obtain a place do so via hiring expensive tutors for years ahead of the 11+.

I wonder if there is any contextualising of the offers to grammar students. If so, then this would be the greatest travesty given they seem to have the perceived benefits of Independent schools albeit on a unpaid basis.

Why are Oxbridge not reducing their numbers?
Someone in above thread mentioned that they are the most disproptionately over presented even by independent standards.
Why do grammar not suffer from the re-balancing like independents do?

I wonder if this is because the the focus is not on perceived unfair advantage but instead money & economics?

Again, I repeat, the system needs to be fair for ALL

• Yes but where is the data you referred to regarding A grade students from state outperform A grade independent students?

Does it exist?*

It does exist - it was publicised a few years ago. The state school students outperformed private school with equivalent entry standards by about half a grade overall. Not huge, but statistically significant.

Oxbridge are interested in getting the numbers of state/private in better balance not as 'social engineering' but in the interests both of fairness and also of getting the cohort with excellent potential who will benefit from the education they get there. They have, and I don't doubt always will have, quite a large tranche educated in the private sector. There probably always will be some imbalance in numbers from private and selective schools versus others for many reasons most of which are obvious (parents' attitude to education is one). But they don't, and shouldn't, discriminate against applicants on the basis of their parents' choices.

am sure you will admit that the economical & geo-political challenges (notwithstanding Brexit, China, Russia) are quite different now and the next 10-15yrs compared to 2004?
Hence my point and worry for the future

You were suggesting that using contextual admissions would impact UK universities reputation on an international level. Contextual offers are a routine part of the UK HE admissions process and there is no evidence of an impact on reputation. It's a widespread practice in many countries and is not unique to the UK.

Universities are well aware of any current economic and geo-political issues which pose a risk to the sector - they employ people to look at this and many even teach these subjects!!
Making the admissions process fairer is not a risk. You are really blowing this all out of proportion.

We need to collectively wise up or lose out for the next 100yrs as other countries (with questionable regimes) are now poised the change the status quo over the last 100yrs and this will have dramatic changes for the UK and the west

What has this go to do with fair access to HE?

Re grammar schools - inequities in secondary and primary education need to be addressed at those levels. It shouldn't be the responsibility of universities to fix them - it's to their credit they do quite a lot to attempt to.

@SouthLondonMommy

Yes, I told you its a study by the Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE). I can't link to it but google it.

Hmmm, I guess I will need to dig that out but data rules!

Also, if the B grade state child is perceived more intelligent then, I suppose it's the A-grade independent that is at a disarrange then as they are destined to perform better according to the data your allude to.

The perceived advantaged independent schooled child is actually at a disadvantage as they have been spoon fed and tutored to the hilt and hence their perform worse at Uni.
So what you are saying is that the state school child is actually in a better place to get a higher degree compared to their Independent schooled child.
Hmmm....seems to be a lot of flip flopping in the narratives that are developing in this thread.

My point is, it's all very complicated.
There are a number of contributors to this thread that have study this issue in depth.
Fair equal merit driven access & opportunity for ALL is what we need.
We need to invest more in education.
Make foreign parents pay more and fund state kids.
Divert the money spent on tuition to expand leading schools for greater entry from a more diverse range of kids (like Eton are doing with their £100m investment on this).
But this needs to be centrally driven.
We aren't going to change anything on here but hopefully we are reasonable enough to consider others opinions and experiences and respond accordingly.

My position remains the same as before though, I identify with the problem but we need to find a smarter solution that embraces the advantages that investment in elite schools bring and endeavour to afford these to the brightest less fortunate

@Keepyourkidsafe I dont quite understand the worry - the current system favour rich kids not smart ones. So if you are concerned about the UK's international competitiveness then contextual offers are absolutely the way forward. The British elite is full of the same old same old....i.e. posh, privately educated kid from Oxford (PPE).....the UK's productivety is so low because no one at the top understands STEM, technological change etc....why.....because frankly they are all from the same background

[quote sarahloopy]@SouthLondonMommy - that's an interesting study - going back to the OPs original question it would also be interesting to see whether kids who could have gone either way i.e. private or state do significantly better in the private sector. I.e. the question of facilitating A'level subjects is I assume one that most educated parents can help their kids with, similarly - lots of A'level students in the state sector get tutors for A'levels etc......

But it is clearly the case that kids without effectively parental support and/or private education will not get as far as those with it[/quote]
Yes, that's exactly what we should be doing.
Screening for the best most able students and feeding them in to the elite schools.....as these schools have the best resources - well at least that's the charge being levelled at them by posters on here

@Keepyourkidsafe but thats not the system and is no the goal of the current system. The current system is effectively about perpertuating itself.

My main concern is that even at uni - there is massive grade inflation because frankly I cant be bothered having to explain to our self-entitled students who complain about a 2.2 on their essay (why.....because thats what it deserved) so me and most of my colleague just give them a bog-standard 61 or 62 to keep them quiet and off our backs. It's harsh but true. The commercialization of education/higher education has even resulted in the dumbing down of universities because we have to ensure that the customer is always right

What the data suggest is that two equally able children will get different results depending on their schooling. A child who gets an A at an independent school will be equivalent in university performance as a B student (for instance, not specifically) in the state sector. A state school pupil with an A will outperform an independent student with an A.

Essentially its easier to get good grades with a private education which is patently obvious as that's why people pay for it.

Therefore, when assessing A-level performance its necessary to contextualise the grades based on the setting and circumstances in which they were achieved.

It's not that complicated. The point with grammar schools is to force them to admit more disadvantaged pupils through policy which is already underway. Some now have feeder primaries from deprived areas with guaranteed places to counteract how wealth has become a barrier to gaining entry.

Universities for years have been trying to broaden who attends there oxbridge is no different.
It's also well known that private schools offer a lot more coaching through exam systems.
How well you do in your A levels isn't really an indicator of how well you will do at uni as independent study is very different.
Most private school friends struggled for the first year as nobody was helping them, pressuring them or chasing them for the work.

Hmmm....seems to be a lot of flip flopping in the narratives that are developing in this thread.

No flip flopping at all. The narrative is consistent.
Independent schools are generally better at preparing young people for the university application process , particularly to the more elite universities. They tend to get better results which can, in part, be attributed to better resources, style of teaching etc.
However, when they attend university alongside state school students and the teaching style and quality is the same the evidence shows that state school students outperform those from independent school.
This supports the need for contextualised admissions. It's about recognizing the potential to do well at HE level.

My position remains the same as before though, I identify with the problem but we need to find a smarter solution that embraces the advantages that investment in elite schools bring and endeavour to afford these to the brightest less fortunate
How do you suggest we do this?

I also think it is excellent

I think even now 50% of Oxbridge places go to private school pupils (when only 7% of all kids get private education)

A friend of mine was telling me she thinks it is unfair (her kids are private, mine are state) which actually amused me. She said what’s the point in paying £££ if my kids get given “preference”, I said we are a long way off state school kids from deprived areas having the upper hand!

(She’s a bit of a tit but I like her nonetheless)

@TheJerkStore

Hmmm....seems to be a lot of flip flopping in the narratives that are developing in this thread.

No flip flopping at all. The narrative is consistent.
Independent schools are generally better at preparing young people for the university application process , particularly to the more elite universities. They tend to get better results which can, in part, be attributed to better resources, style of teaching etc.
However, when they attend university alongside state school students and the teaching style and quality is the same the evidence shows that state school students outperform those from independent school.
This supports the need for contextualised admissions. It's about recognizing the potential to do well at HE level.

My position remains the same as before though, I identify with the problem but we need to find a smarter solution that embraces the advantages that investment in elite schools bring and endeavour to afford these to the brightest less fortunate
How do you suggest we do this?

Fair equal merit driven access & opportunity for ALL is what we need. We need to invest more in education. Make foreign parents pay more and fund state kids. Divert the money spent on tuition to expand leading schools for greater entry from a more diverse range of kids (like Eton are doing with their £100m investment on this). But this needs to be centrally driven.

@ThenCatoJumpedOut
Its 38% of places at Oxford to private school students and 17% of A-level students are privately educated.

I agree with the general point but we should overstate the problem!

Fair equal merit driven access & opportunity for ALL is what we need.
We need to invest more in education.
Make foreign parents pay more and fund state kids.
Divert the money spent on tuition to expand leading schools for greater entry from a more diverse range of kids (like Eton are doing with their £100m investment on this).
But this needs to be centrally driven.

And until we have a government that does this universities will continue to do what they can to make the admissions process as fair as possible.

@OnlyTeaForMe Would you mind DM'ing me the 6th form college near you, really interested in what they are achieving. Thanks.

@Keepyourkidsafe your solution doesn't work unless every single child gets an independent education. Otherwise you still need contextual offers. Either that or we increase the education budget for state schools by 3 or 4 fold so its the same as per pupil spend in the private sector.

Contextual offers are a much more strait forward solution and are clearly fair based on the data.

straight** not strait!

Top employers Goldman Sachs etc falling over themselves to be diverse and fair at recruiting. The fact you went to a particular school or your father lunches with someone on the board won’t cut it.

As it happens, I've worked at that particular shop. I can say with certainty that, for any given set of results, you are much more likely to get an interview with Harvard or Oxbridge on your CV than with Northwestern or Durham, very good schools though they are. And if you think that a CV that gets forwarded through a board member, or even a run-of-the-mill managing director, doesn't get an extra look and a greatly increased chance of an interview, then you're not talking about any company that I'm familiar with. Very few middle managers will want to say that they didn't make some effort in case the big shot in question actually follows up.

@expat96. Interview perhaps - but surely the actual job offer is made by a larger panel so less likely to wash? My brother is a partner at Deloittes and says they are very, very strict about these things now.